Another Bellboy 21

[Guest]

Next big step is the cockpit floor. My intention is to trim the floor pieces roughly to size and epoxy top and bottom. Then I can set them in place and walk on them while I work in the cabin.

I managed to get the two panels trimmed on the outside before rain drove me inside. You can see there are a few drops on the plywood. Port still needs a little more trimming, then I'll mark the overlap and trim so they side flat on the beams. All looks good. Note that the 8 foot length doesn't quite get to the end of the cockpit. I'll have to splice in another foot or so- I haven't measured.

But that will come much later. As soon as I can walk on the cockpit floor safely I'll shift my attention to the cabin. I also have some shelving to build for the house, so it might be a while before I get a lot done inside.

[Guest]

Progress has been slow the last several weeks. House stuff has taken priority, so I've been building shelves and doing other carpentry. Finally got a decent day's work in on the boat today.

I chiseled out the airbox, and this is interesting. In the first photo you can see the two bright spots. These are the holes through the hull into the floatation chamber. They are very clean- they don't look like something done recently. They really look like something done at the factory, although I can't be sure.

But you'll notice they are nowhere near the bottom of the hull, so water can't drain until it's an inch or so deep. Now comes the fun part. The keel assembly, which is a board about 1x5 with another board at right angle- protrudes into the airbox. There is room to stick my finger under the 1x5, and there's no way to know how far aft the space goes. So this arrangement guarantees the best possible conditions for damp rot. There will always be lots of water and air. I find it amazing that, as far as I can see, the keel is solid. There is a bit here and a bit at the stern that is not enclosed by fiberglass, and when I tap it with a hammer or poke at it, it seems uncontaminated. I plan to pour some alchohol into this space, which should displace any surface water and then evaporate. That should take a week or two. Then I'll pour ethylene glycol there, and leave this until the last step of construction. The ethylene glycol (automobile antifreeze) is supposed to be very good at killing rot, and hopefully six months or so will allow most of it to evaporate. I think that's the best I can do without ripping out the keel, which seems like overkill.

The other thing I'm going to do is add vertical plates to tie the ribs, keel, hull, and floor together. Hard to visualize- I'll add a photo when I've got them in. This will allow those to work as one beam, which should be extremely strong and rigid.

I spent most of the day fiberglassing the ribs and stringers in the cabin area. I added a layer of mat over the three new stringers I made plus two more layers of cloth. I wasn't quite satisfied with them. I found a small area of rot in each of the forward frames at the limber holes, so I dug out that material and added a layer of cloth over each of the ribs. Lots of glass and epoxy to reinforce the stringers and connect them firmly to the ribs. I've traced the outer shape of the cabin floors onto 3/8 marine ply. One of the next few days I'll put those in and cut the center line. I've been saying Okume, but that's just my absent-mindedness. All the wood I've used to date has been 1/2 inch 6266 Meranti. Well, 12 mm. The floor in the cabin will be two layers of 9MM of the same stuff, and all the cabinetry structure will be the 1/2 again.

I feel like I'm getting close to done on the structure, and soon I'll start working on the interior. The main structure task I haven't done is to make the ribs for the cockpit. There were three on each side, and none of them was useable.

[Helmar]

Its looking better every time you show photo

[Guest]

It's been about forever since I posted here. Which is about how long it's been since I've been able to get any work done on the the boat. For Thanksgiving we had my brother and my wife, and their six children from three months to eleven years, plus my brother-in-law. All staying with us. Since we still are getting things sorted out that mean a lot of cleaning and custom-bookcase-and-shelf building, etc. But I finally was able to get some visible work done.

In my earlier posts I described the floor reinforcement, which included making sure all wood in the floor was completely encapsulated. I am currently planning on having an anchor locker forward. That implies some drainage. I'm putting in a small sump in the cabin, which will drain through two PVC pipes to a larger sump in the stern. I haven't worked out exactly the layout, but I ran some one inch plumbing hose from the cabin sump through the existing frame limber holes to the extreme bow. The limber holes are now completely sealed with epoxy and tubing, but since the floors will be foamed that's fine. There was a little rot around the limber holes, but not too bad. They are several feet longer than I need, and I'll trim to size later.

There's a forward piece- it's not quite a frame and not quite a collision bulkhead- where the side bunks come together. I'll call it a partial bulkhead. It's about an inch or two aft of the forward end of the keel. In time stolen here and there I got this frame fitted and glued in place.
I had previously go the floor for the cabin cut and trimmed. Almost. I'm using two layers of 3/8" ply, and there are two notches. One on the port side where the thruhull for the head goes, and one in the center aft for the access to the sump. I'm not going to cut out those notches in the top sheet in place just to make sure all is aligned properly.

I marked on the sidewalls where the ribs were. I put the two pieces of flooring in place and used a chalkline to mark the rib location. I then drilled and countersunk for screws to hold the flooing in place and tight while the epoxy cured. Then I removed the flooring, mixed the epoxy with cabosil to make a slightly runny paste. I heavily puttied the top of all the frames, laid the flooring in place, and tighten the bolts. I can't attach the top floor layer yet because I'm not ready to do the foam. Because I have to heat everything up that's going to be a problem, and I'd rather do the entire boat in one shot. The picture isn't very revealing, but you can see the partial bulkhead.

The next thing I worked on was the dashboard. I took a couple before pictures, and one is attached, but it doesn't show it very well. The dashboard was just painted wood, an extension of the cabin ceiling. They puttied around the corner with something that looks like where the glass and wood meet with something that looks like glue commonly used for linoleum flooring in the fifties. So I scraped down to bare wood. On one small area on the port side the top plies of wood were pretty rotted, so I scraped though probably a third of the thickness to get to halfway decent wood. I also scraped away as much of the old putty as I could.
The rotted area got a layer of cloth, two layers of mat, and another layer of cloth. That built it back up to about the original thickness. Then a layer of mat over the whole dash. Then let it cure overnight.

Today I scraped that down to take off the high points. Then I puttied a nice corner radius. Now whatever questionable wood and putty is left is at least well encapsulated and it should all be really waterproof.
Next I had planned to do the side frames in the cockpit area.
Oh... can't do that yet. The joint between the hull and deck needs to be reinforced. That means cleaning, wire brushing, etc. Then taping,

Oh... can't do that yet. There are two beams forward to support the forward deck. They need to be reinforced first.

Helmar mentioned this in a previous post as something they had to rebuild on Bruce Drake's BB21. (Mine will be the pretty one when it's done. His is the drop-dead-beautiful-work-of-art-one.) They go from side to side, but at the ends- they don't connect to anything!. From a stuctural standpoint, that's the worst possible situation- stiff but not strong. (I should mention that although I currently am a computer programmer I have an MS in mechanical engineering, and was a mechanical design engineer for over a decade.) Also, the side deck all around are plywood, laminated to the glass on top and unsealed and unsupported below. On the starboard side there is some separation in the hull-to-deck joint, and on the port side the side deck is separated from the glass.
So I rigged up a 2-6 crosswide resting on the hull and braced from the partial bulkhead I mentioned previously. On this I put a small auto jack and used that to push the beam up a bit. I made eight gussets or corner braces- one for forward and aft sides, port and starboard, of each beam. I then epoxied between the deck plywood and the glass, and between the beam ends and the gussets. I held the gussets in place with one screw- because of the angles that keeps everything surprisingly tight. I did the four aft-side gussets. Later, after these are taped and cured I'll do the forward sides, but I can't get in to do those while the jack is in place.

Picture #1 shows the cabin floor first layer and the partial bulkhead. #2 is the partially-prepared dashboard. #3 shows the separation between hull and deck on the starboard side. #4 shows the much worse problem at the same point on port. #5 shows the failure at the port side of that same beam, and shows how it does not connect to the hull. #6 shows the gussets in place and puttied. #7 shows the repaired dashboard. (Putty still curing.)

I would have liked to get a bit more accomplished, but it's the most productive weekend I've had in over a month. I hope I can get a little done during the week, and maybe do as well next weekend.

[Marty Loken (Norseboater)]

Bell Boy 21

Nice to see that you're hanging in there with the project, making some progress. You're probably at the 'low ebb' point right now; once you start more of the actual new-construction work you'll start glimpsing the finish line.

With Bruce Drake's BB21, the foredeck beams had been broken more than yours, and the deck was somewhat caved-in...as though King Kong had been jumping furiously on the foredeck at some point. We ended up fashioning a solid mahogany beam of arched design that bridged across side-to-side, epoxied firmly to the hullsides; it offered better support than the original glassed-in beams and helped nudge the distorted foredeck back into its intended position. (You can see the beam in the photo below...)

Best,

- Marty

[Guest]

Marty (and Helmar) Every time I look at a picture of that boat it's almost painful- it's just so beautiful. But at least I know I can have the second-most-beautiful BB21 around. I'm glad that mine wasn't as bad. I'm repairing a small amount of damage, and mostly trying to prevent more damage in future.The beam was pretty much where it was supposed to be, so although I preloaded it a little (I would guess like a few hundred pounds, I wasn't really forcing anything to a significantly different position. Just compensating for a little sag. And the beam itself is still, surprisingly, in good shape. Just needs to be tied in properly.

I think I started this with a fairly realistic idea of the work I was taking on. Within a factor of two anyway. Maybe a bit optimistic on parts cost, but that's not unusual for me. I'm motivated- I've wanted a boat like this for a very, very long time. Yes, I look forward to starting the rebuild. I've saved all the original interior pieces to use as templates. These two beams, the hull-to-deck joint, and side ribs are the last major structural elements before I can start putting things together.

[Guest]

Am I the only one who never gets more than half what he wanted to done on a weekend?

Made a bit more progress, but nothing worth pictures. I got the forward beam reinforcements puttied and taped in place. Just the aft side of each beam- I still need to do the forward. I've filleted the starboard side if the hull-to-deck joint in preparation for another two layers of tape. I got the new cabin aft bulkhead pieces cut, so I can get rid of the old bulkheads. Which I was saving for templates.

The boat came from the factory with four frames in the cockpit between the cabin aft bulkhead. Frames #1 and 3 had side ribs, and #2 and 4 were only below the deck. I didn't like that- I feel like the sides need more support than that. So I've got four for each side fitted, cut, laminated (2 layers of 1088 Meranti), and curing.

So.. I get the side frames on, then I can slot the cockpit decks for the frames. Then I can bond the frames in place, then I can foam under the decks. Then I can start making a new interior. That should be fun.

[TheBronze]

Its not just you. I go through the same thing on the 404. And with holidays and what not, I haven't done much on her at all the last month or so. But that will change over Christmas break. Heading to Eden Saw for some bulkhead plywood...

[Guest]

We Have a Deck!

Another four weeks without enough progress to be worth posting. But I have gotten a little bit done.

First I needed to get the side frames in. After some fitting and trimming, I had a set. As originally built there were only two frames on each side aft of the cabin bulkhead, but I didn't like that. I have four, and I believe they are a bit deeper than the originals. Each is two layers of 12MM ply glued together. I put one 2" hole and two 1.5" holes in each as you can see in the second picture. Then painted all sides with epoxy.

The port side deck seemed to be sagging slightly, so I used a 2x6 between two of the frames and an old shop jack I had around to lift the inner side about a half inch. See photo #1. I left it in that position until the epoxy was cured. I used some 1x4's I had around to put some pressure to hold the side ribs against the hull sides while the epoxy cured. Three of them held fine, but the fourth required a little duct tape to keep the top in position. See photo #2.

Then I filleted and taped everything. Two layers of 2 inch fiberglass tape at each joint.

I almost put the deck directly on the frames, but I need a some shear connection between the deck and the longitudinal bulkhead sections. All the references say that if you have a T joint with two pieces of plywood you should assume there's zero strength. IMHO that's too conservative, but I don't want to cut corners.

So I got some 1x1's and made what I would call cleats to increase the bonding surface area. Now this is the first wood I've put in that wasn't 1088 Meranti plywood. I surface-treated with wood preservative, lightly abraded, and encapsulated in epoxy. It should spend its life fairly dry and oxygen-starved. So it shouldn't rot in more than my lifetime. I used #8 stainless steel screws to hold these to the ribs and bulkhead while the epoxy cured. See photo #3.

I had previously cut the decks to size, but I had to notch them for the ribs and cut holes for the foam. Then I sealed all those cuts. I put a 2" hole on the outboard side of each bay to add the foam, and a 1.5 inch hole in the two center corners of each bay for expansion. Later, after the foam has cured I'll add a second deck layer. I had already put in the first layer of the deck in the cabin, and while I was doing this I cut the holes for the foam in the cabin.

I was able to set the two deck parts next to where they were going to go. See photo #4. Then clean everything, a light coating of epoxy on all the mating surfaces, a reasonably thick layer of epoxy putty (filled with cabosil) on the ribs and cleats, and lay down the deck. Thanks to the notches for the ribs, the final movement into position was rotating straight down.

Then I used more #8 stainless screws to clamp everything down. Everywhere I could see there was good squeeze-out and everything looks solid.

So... it's only the first layer. But I have decks! See photo #5. The blue dust is chalk- I used a chalk line to mark where the decks were for screw-drilling purposes.

One step closer!

[Marty Loken (Norseboater)]

Bb21

Ed -

Great job on the new deck, and I like the idea of additional side frames. That boat is going to be hell for stout!

- Marty

[Guest]

The boating Gods smiled on me today.

Thanks, Marty. Looks a bit better then when I got it from you, I think.

Today was a unique experience for me. I wanted to foam under all the decks. And, astonishingly, I got foam everwhere I planned on!

I never get everything I want to do done.

As you can see, it's currently a bit messy, but that will all clean up easily. I have a ten-gallon foam kit, and I used it all up. I need maybe six or eight more ounces in the bow, and I haven't done the aft bay in the cabin or the very aft bay. Both those need some work to build out the sumps before I could foam them. But I figure I have something around 2,000 pounds of floation already.

Now that's probably adequate, but the problem is that it's not all in the right place. With all that foam in the bottom and none on the sides, the boat will float but at the first wave she'll flip upside down. A couple years ago I remember a couple NFL players went fishing off Florida and got in trouble, and they were picked up after like sixteen hours. I remember seeing the pictures of them sitting up the upturned bottom of a V-hull. Offshore in PNW waters that would be very unpleasant, and probably seriously dangerous.

So I probably won't foam the bays that aren't already foamed, but I do plan to foam the sides. I'll put a layer of probably 1/2 meranti on the side frames up to the holes you see in the picture, then foam the sides to there. (Those holes are for running fuel, controls, and wiring.) Above that I'll have a similar layer but removable. I'll glue some 2 inch styrofoam where I can there.

I know temperature is critical for proper foam expansion. It's supposed to be over seventy degrees, and the forecast was for about 50. I left the foam in the house for the last week, and I did another trick I read somewhere on this site. I wish I could remember who so I could give credit.

First I measured everywhere and made a spreadsheet to estimate how much foam I would need for each pour. I got a largish ice chest and kept it full of really hot water (I kept some boiling on the stove so I could periodically add more. I got a bunch of 32-oz graduated mixing cups, and put 12 ounces in each. I put the A component in the hot ice chest, and let it sit there for about 15 minutes. While that was soaking I got everything ready including the same number of cups of part B. Then I brought the part A into the boat, mixed the two, and poured into the holes. I found that it was a waste to pour any in the other holes- it expands too fast, and I think the longitudinal stringer keep it from flowing down to the center. But if I poured almost half through the centerline holes and the rest in the center of the bay it worked nicely. After it set up I added a bit in the few places that weren't fully foamed, and now I seem to have decent overflow everywhere.

So a second deck layer should be in the near future. Then I'll start building a new interior.

[TheBronze]

Ed,

Looks good! Remember, that foam that is sitting on the deck, etc can be cut up and stuffed into other chambers. It's a great way to save materials cost.

As for tortising.... Forget about it. With foam in there, the boat floats no differently than if it had nothing. Foam won't make the boat float any better than air, it just won't be displaced by water if the hull is comprimised, unlike air... It is best for that and for noise abation. If the boat does capsize, it will at least give you something to hold on to, assuming the total amount of bouyancy in the boat is greater than the total weight. Otherwise, it will just go down. So don't worry about it. The guys in the NFL, who knows what happened. They could have all been on one side of the boat, or a rogue wave may have hit them, or they could have been screwing around. You never know.

Your mini bulkheads look great! I have 1 set on my 404 but they aren't as air crafty looking as yours.

I remember being at this stage of foaming and deck work on my 404 not that long ago. It was holding everything up! Needed to put bulkheads in, but couldn't do that til the floor was glassed. Couldn't glass the floor until the foam was in. Couldn't foam until the floor was in, and holes drilled. Now I have bulkheads and am at the interior portion and it is a good feeling! You'll get there before you know it.

[Guest]

Thanks. Good advice about the foam.

The issue with regards to the side floation is important for anyone who takes their small boat a significant distance from shore. My comments apply to any fairly flat-bottomed hull, especially one with an outboard, a cabin, and all the foam below deck.

If the hull is swamped, all the form stability is gone. Even if there's no waves, the wind is pushing above the center of lateral resistance. Waves and people moving around create some lean.

Say the hull leans a bit to starboard. The outboard and superstructure are above the center of gravity, so they want to make it go farther. The floatation is below the center of gravity, so there is now more foam on the port side. That imbalance that also wants to tilt to starboard. There's a significant overturning moment and no righting moment. As the boat leans farther the overturning moment increases. It's maximum when it at 90 degrees, laying on its side. Once the boat is upside down it's extremely stable, because the foam is on top and everything heavy is below. So the boat is almost guaranteed to flip, and it happens very quickly. Generally the first wave after the swamping starts it, and in a few seconds the boat is upside down.

But if you have say 200 pounds of floatation on each side of the hull above the deck you have a chance. As one side lifts up you have something pushing back. I'm not equipped to do real stability calculations, but I would expect sluggish rolling. That gives the skipper a change to maybe get enough water out to turn the vehicle into a boat again.




Ed

[Helmar]

Ed,

Looks good! Remember, that foam that is sitting on the deck, etc can be cut up and stuffed into other chambers. It's a great way to save materials cost.

As for tortising.... Forget about it. With foam in there, the boat floats no differently than if it had nothing. Foam won't make the boat float any better than air, it just won't be displaced by water if the hull is comprimised, unlike air... It is best for that and for noise abation. If the boat does capsize, it will at least give you something to hold on to, assuming the total amount of bouyancy in the boat is greater than the total weight. Otherwise, it will just go down. So don't worry about it. The guys in the NFL, who knows what happened. They could have all been on one side of the boat, or a rogue wave may have hit them, or they could have been screwing around. You never know.

Your mini bulkheads look great! I have 1 set on my 404 but they aren't as air crafty looking as yours.

I remember being at this stage of foaming and deck work on my 404 not that long ago. It was holding everything up! Needed to put bulkheads in, but couldn't do that til the floor was glassed. Couldn't glass the floor until the foam was in. Couldn't foam until the floor was in, and holes drilled. Now I have bulkheads and am at the interior portion and it is a good feeling! You'll get there before you know it.

The thing about Tortising, your right forget about it.
At least your boat is not on the bottom !!!
With the proper ropes, floats, you can upright them again and pump out.
I vote for finding my boat Not on the bottom.

[Guest]

I definitely agree that being ABOVE the water is a big improvement on being IN the water. Unless you want to go swimming, which I usually don't.