Skagit 20' Restoration

[aguynamedchris]

After reading John Forsythe's story of the restoration of his Bell Boy 404 Express and learning so much from it I thought I should do the same with my winter project. I purchased this boat back in January 2012 but haven't really had much time to work on her till now. As I go I'll keep pictures and hopefully get some more useful advice as I move along.

Here is a picture of the boat as she was when i picked her up from a tow lot earlier this year. She has a factory hardtop as well as the original curved glass windshield.

I've taken out the original fiberglass fuel tanks and will make an attempt this winter at cutting them open and lining them as I like both the light weight characteristic and the fact they are saddle tanks which help to maximize floor and storage space. I've also read that having the weight distributed on the sides of the boat adds to the stability as it takes more energy to get the boat rocking than a bottom heavy boat.


Here are some pictures of the inside configuration.
There is a space for a porta potty and a sink on the other side.

I'm assuming there is a water holding tank inside that other fiberglass dash but I can't for the life of me figure out how to open it up!

I'll have to take it apart to really figure it out. I'm sure there must be ruled now that don't allow these toilets to just drain directly through an open pipe to the water. What is the new standard for toilets on the water? Removable porta potty? What have some of you done?

My immediate plan is to redo the floor. I'll be keeping the back under the splashwell open for a bilge area and then putting down new floor, with foam and drainage as suggested here. Today I started taking out the floor.





After clearing out the bulkhead and cleaning up the space I decided on to try a carpentry trick suggested to me by a relative who is a cabinetmaker but has done a little work on the side helping out an old shipwright. What I've done here is bought an 4 x 8 door skin and laid it out on the old floor before I removed it. Then you take a framing square and line it up against the hull marking it out on the skin by tracing the shape of the square. Now when I get the new plywood I can create a trace of the exact shape I'll need by replotting those points using this skin as guide. I'll post more pictures when I get to that part.





There are a couple of things that have confused me as I started taking the floor up and I hope some other Skagit owners can shed some light on this. First of all I was surprised that the floor in the cuddy was lower than the floor on the boat and that what I thought were the stringers actually appear to be just floor joists. In between the joists there are some shorter smaller stringers (or at least thats what I'm calling them) that do run the whole length of the boat.




My question here is are those joists structural stringers or not? Wouln't having them stop at the cabin bulkhead weaken the overall structure of the boat? The bulkhead runs all the way to the floor but it really didn't seem to have much structural strength. I'm wondering if in the rebuild if I should link those stringers (joists?) together in order to make a stronger hull. Some insight here would be appreciated.

A second thing that concerned me is that it looks like there was a fire in the boat at some time. Some of the stringers were burned right through.




It also seemed odd to me that they were only 1 sided - is this normal? Aside from the middle stringer which was glassed all the way around, the other side ones only had glass and cloth on the inside wall. The outside is open.


Again it makes me wonder if this is just because what I think are stringers are really just floor joists for supporting the floor?

[Helmar]

Nice progress.
I think you fill find that the new crap gas is causing problems with the stock fiberglass tanks. Its been known that the new crap gas turns the resin into snot, which ends up plugging up the filters and if not, makes it to the carbs.

As far as the stringers, yes, that is normal.
The Bell Boy boats those stringers are half the size of those.

That has to be a very late 1958 as its got the 58 cabin design with the 59 helm windshield and hard top.

She has the old 3 mile toilet in it. Got to be 3 miles or used to anyway, out to sea before you could flush it.
Most everyone pulls the heavy stock one out and seals the hole. Then add a porta poddy to her.

Those black spots that look like it was scorched at one time is dried, stained oil.
One thing you might do is just down the keel, run some 1/2 ABS water pipe from the cabin area clear back to the bilge area. Box that bilge area and just put your pump down in that boxed area.
And water build up in the cabin can run down those pipes to the rear of the boat.
Oh, that is IF you foam it as the foam will block all the weep holes.
Several things the foam will do is one, make it a Lot quieter when pounding over the waves, the other is of course gives her floatation in case you would ever need it.
The boat will turtle but hey, she is floating and not stuck to the bottom in mud up here.
I think we drilled 2" holes 16 inches or so apart, tipped her bow way up and did our pours that way.

Like I said, your looken good :GoodJob:

[TheBronze]

Dang! Nice progress. I'm glad I can be of help with my own trials and tribulations on the 404. Your starting point sure looks a lot better than mine! I've spent the bulk of the late summer and early fall dealing with the lousy paint jobs on the hull and deck. She'll get bottom and gn'l paint next week. Be glad you didn't have to go down that road!

I'd ditch the tanks and replace them with plastic ones. You'll never worry about it again... the saddle tanks are great though. Lots of capacity and better balance than having it up front or in the stern.

Don't worry about the burn or oil or whatever it is. Hit it with acetone to break it up, clean it out and then put fresh glass on it. Good as new!

Toilet. Ya, port-a-pottie is the way to go. Or nothing if thats your take. They make some pretty small stuff that can be burried under a bench.

Lower floor. Not surprising. The big Dorsets have that feature as well. A step down cabin. Makes for extra headroom!

As for the tie in on the stringers. Hm. your main bulkhead must have been the joiner for that set up.

I would suggest putting the bulkhead in first. Take it down to the floor where the two different stringers meet, just like it is now. You might need to put a temporary piece of wood on the floor so you can square it verticaly. Take that out once the glass is set, then tie the bulkhead to the stringers and hull on both sides. Just a few inches on each part will do. Probably overkill, but if you want to make it uber....

When you put your floor in, glass that to the bulkhead as well. It will be nice and stout. On the 404, where the glass meets the wood, I plan on putting a water barier like Kiwigrip on it to cover up the glass and make the floor/bulkhead uniform. In color even!

Your splashwell wood looks shot! Try and take it out in one piece if you can for a template.

Speaking of templates. Man! I wish I had had that cabinet makers advice when I did my floor! I ripped it out and then measured off of the center stringer. It worked, but I think your method will provide better results.

Great work! YOU are an inspiration to me and my continuing work.

[aguynamedchris]

Thanks Helmar and John for your ideas and encouragement. Today I took out all the splashwell wood - it was so soft it crumbled like paper in my hands so sadly I could not save it for a template. Will have to deal with that later. In the meantime I spent the rest of my time with an angle grinder cutting away and grinding down all the excess bits of wood and glass from the old floor and bulkheads. Ill take a bit of time tomorrow to do some cleanup and reasses where I'm at. I am thinking that your suggestion on the bulkhead first is a very good one as I'm also going to redo the transom and I don't want to have too much of the inside gutted without having some interior support to retain the proper shape of the hull. I'm thinking maybe a good rebuild order is to first replace the bulkhead -> remove and replace transom -> finish off by laying the new floor.

[Helmar]

Pattern Making

Making patterns are not as hard as one thinks.
Me, I get a 4x8 sheet of what is called Door Skin (Home Depot) and rip it in two inch x 8 foot pieces.
Then I get a hot glue gun and plenty of glue sticks.
Oh, and don't forget to stop at a Craft store and pick up a box of Popsicle sticks. You will use them.

This works even if you don't have a pattern to start with. If your pattern is, well just partial, then build it out.
Don't leave yourself Voids to fill. Those are a bugger and take up lots of Resin and fillers.

Its hard to tweak a Skagit hull but doing a the splash well and bulkhead separate sure doesn't hurt anything.
I like to just gut her out, make the patterns and start from the transom and go forward, which does not make it the right way, just my way..

You will find Plenty of ways to do your transom. Mine is different than others.
I use 1/2 plywood, MarXite sealer, Fiberlay Laminating resin and fiberglass cloth.

Oh, and here is your transom bulkhead.
Remember, they were limited in power back then so the transoms were Huge for batteries and Twin Engines.
I would say, Way to much wasted area now.
I try to redesign them as they don't need to be that large, and, you can use the storage spaces.
Pick your motor and design around it. :TwoCents1:

[McSkagit Tim Jones]

Nice project - good advice

Nice looking Skagit. Lots of great advice from Joe who has been there and done that. Keep us posted on your progress.....

Tim

[aguynamedchris]

Transom part 1

After some consideration I've decided to go with Helmar's advice and start with the transom. As I was getting there I thought I'd take some photos of the old original pulley and cable steering system which was still kicking around (although no longer in use). I'll be removing this old system but it's kinda neat to see how it used to work originally.

After removing the splashwell it was interesting to see how the original transom was done. I'm assuming this is original but who knows. As you can see the wood on the inside was actually exposed in the middle with fiberglass just around the edges.

It also didn't run completely to the floor but rather it hangs off of a fiberglass shelf which I thought was a bit odd.

The middle stringer is the only place that reaches up and transfers the thrust of the engine into the hull (that plus the sides). I actually found that to my surprise the exposed wood wasn't nearly as rotten as some of the fully encased wood on the sides which suffered from rot as a result of holes drilled in to mount a kicker bracket. on this side I was able to dig the wood out with my hands it was so soft.


This brings me to the topic of removing the more intact wood. I found this to be extremely difficult at first because the wood is much stronger than the fiberglass skin on the outside which I'm trying to separate it from. For future newbies here is my solution. I finally found a system that worked for me involving a chainsaw, a prybar and a hammer.

I used the chainsaw to cut in vertical grooves about 18 inches apart running the full height of the transom. I could then drive the prybar in the plywood from the side and pull in off in layers, minimizing the threat of cracking the outer fiberglass.

There was a layer of cloth between the plywood and roving fiberglass but the cloth is coming out as it's nearly completely delaminated from the hull. Now comes the challenge of rebuilding. Here is what I'm thinking and why and I welcome input here from more experienced rebuilders.


The transom is curved but also not very strong once all of the wood is out so my thought was to start with some biaxial cloth against the hull then a 3/8 piece of marine plywood which should have enough flex to conform to the curve without being so still that it warps it into a more flat shape. I can then add wood layers 3/8th at a time to get to the desired width. In between each layer I would use fiberglass resin (?) to keep the plywood together. I don't really see the point of adding cloth in the interior structure as it won't really affect the strength of the transom - as I understand it the strength comes from the wood and the role of the cloth and resin is to bond it to the sides and bottom and keep the plywood watertight.

To that end I'm told that the reason for marine grade plywood isnt so much to do with the glue used or any treatments but the fact that is is free of interior voids which normal plywood can have which comprimise the integrity of the plywood strength. Anyone got any knowledge of this?

I'll be cleaning up and prepping the surface the next couple of evenings before I get started on rebuilding so still lots of time to make adjustments based on some of your feedback.

[TheBronze]

Ah, I remember the demolition days well!

I don't think your 3/8 approach is a bad one. Sounds like a multiple lay up job for sure though. If you can get the first piece to flex into palce and then maybe tab it in on the ends it might be all you need to do to keep the curve. Or you could just build it straight. When I did the transom on the 404 I was surprised at how much flex it had with the 3/4 ply that I used - on the first layer. With that in position it flopped all over the place. When I put the second piece in, all I had to do was hold it with my hand and all the flex vanished. It was amazing.

My firmest advice to you on any of your transom work is to take a trip to harbor freight and buy a nice supply of clamps. Buy LOTS of them. They are cheaper there than any local hardware store. Get wood ones and metal ones, small ones, big ones. Then have lots of wood handy for when you clamp your pieces in. You want protection on the outside so you don't damage your gelcoat and protection on the inside so you don't dent the new wood. Plus, using sections of wood helps to distribute the clamping force so that you get maximum adhesion of your thickened resin (see what I did there?). On the inside bottom, use 2x4s clamped to your stringers (if they are tall enough) and wedge them against the bottom. I think I have some shots of this on my thread. Basically, put them too close to the wood to fit, clamp them down, then drive them down into the base with a hammer.

[aguynamedchris]

Fiberglass Disaster!

Well today was quite a mess. It seems like often these types of restoration stories are filled with stories of getting it right but since i got it SO completely wrong maybe someone down the road will benefit from this experience. Maybe also in a few days I'll be a bit less pissed off and be able to laugh about it. Right now I just feel like burning that ****ing boat to the ground.

Here is what happened. After creating a form with door skin I ended up getting some 1/4 marine ply (only choice was 1/4 or 1/2 so I went with the more flexible option) and cut out my first layer. I've been paranoid about the curve and as a result i think I made my piece too wide. The result is that while a door skin will flex to the length I created, the 1/4 leaves a rather large void in the corner. My solution to this was to mix up a batch of fiberglass filled with antisag to a nice buttery consistency which I could spread around and fill any voids. Talk about a stupid plan.

My first clue was when, after spreading the fiberglass on the inside of the hull (quite generously in the troublesome corners), I bumped against some I'd started with and it was already turning to a jelly-like consistency. Panicked I raced in side the boat to start slamming my form into place - what a nightmare. The sticky fiberglass was now all over my gloves, clamps and wood and while I was able to get good pressure in the middle, the corners would just not cinch up enough. I tightened till i could hear the wood cracking and thats when I realized this was just not going to work as I still had huge voids in between the hull and the board. However, now I've got only minutes to get this damn thing undone! In a now sweaty reversal, I began undoing the clamps and taking the form out. I've just wasted a bunch of money on glass and I'm determined to salvage the form so I lay it on the workbench and begin scraping off the fiberglass jelly which now is about the consistency of fake movie skin. I scrape off the form and race to the hull where the problem is even worse. The inside of the hull looks like a nightmare of lumps. I grab the scraper and get to work peeling it off before it sets. I managed to get about 90% off with a few sections I'll have to wait to set so i can resand (if I don't still burn that m*********er to the ground.

Here is a picture of the remains

The yard is still a mess - it will be a few hours and most likely a few beers before I'm ready to face it and take another look. I suspect that the core of my problem is that I'm trying to get too much curve out of my wood and I should be happy enough to get a modest curve and rely on the glass and cloth to tie it in to the sides of the boat. Anyways, I welcome any thoughts on this topic - especially with regard to how far into the curve the wood should go. I also welcome any thoughts on the use of antisage to the fiberglass to make it thicker and easier to work with.

I suspect it will be a few days to get my enthusiasm back to try this again and given the way it went it's probably best to do a bit or reflecting and get a better plan in place.

I'll end off with a bit of rumination that I've always disliked carpentry - I'm a much better mechanic than a carpenter. In my mind mechanics is simply putting back together a perfectly organized plan created by a team of really smart people. At it's core there is really not a lot of need for guessing or finesse - you just put it back together the way it was designed and it works. Carpentry is far more open ended - too many choices and variables mean that mistakes are too easy to make and I think there is a certain artistry that is required to do a really good job. Hopefully with a bit of help I can create a better plan for trying this again because thinking of stuff on the fly when the fiberglass is hardening is not an experience I want to have again!

[Helmar]

One thing that most folks won't do, test the application product first.
Got to know when it will kick. Warm weather, you have to back it off a fair amount. West Marine resin, goes way to fast and is hard for me to control.
I ended up using Fiberlay Laminating resin, mixed a small batch and timed how low before it started to heat up and gel.

The reason I do that......Cause I have been right were you are now, big mess.
I have used a skill saw to get some of the not so rotten plywood out but nver a chain saw. Pretty brave

[TheBronze]

Ugh. Sorry to hear your pain!

Yes, play with your materials before you commit. And do lots of test fitting. LOTS of test fitting. I would bet that the difference in width of wood required to account for your curved transom is not more than half an inch. I'm sure there is some tricky math formula to plug in the radius of the curve vs the width of the hull to get the exact dimension.... but we are just hacks here.

Clean it all up, cut out a new piece and test fit it with your clamps. Make adjustments until it is as perfect as it can get and THEN commit to using the resin.

As for thickeners. Yes, I reccomend using them for these sort of applications. I thickened the resin on my transom as I laid the pieces in but not a lot. Just something to give it a little extra while it sets up.

Also, it looks like you used WAY too much resin. Even with thickening, I can't see using more than about 10-15 ounces for the whole thing. You aren't going for a huge glue job, just something to bind the two surfaces together. Brush it on both sides after thickening and then let physics and chemistry do the rest for you. The clamps should be shoving most of your resin back out through the top, sides, and any other holes in the exterior fiberglass as you tighten them down.

As for resin, I've used the Fiberglass Supply vinylester and the US Composites vinylester. I prefer the US composites workability a bit more, but either one will do the job. Pot life is usually 15 to 20 minutes, more if it is thickened. But even then, if it isn't working out and you remove your piece, you are just left with sticky stuff vs clumps if you don't use too much.

Don't get too discouraged. We all make mistakes learning this stuff. Heck, I ruined one of my sliding windows a few months back....

[aguynamedchris]

Back to work

After the transom disaster I took a few days off to replan my attack. Getting this curve is tricky - it's about 3 inches of curve from the center of the transom to the edges of the boat. I'm not really sure I'm trying to go too far with the plywood because that curve seems to be just an awful lot to try and do, however thats where my old plywood ended so that's what I'm going to go with.

I am starting with 1/4" plywood again as it's the thickest I can get to curve that far. There are still some voids in the corners because the curve is not an even on, it's more like a sharp curve in the corner with a soft cuving middle - sort of like a C-clamp shape. Anyhow here is what I've been doing. Pictures will follow - as i've been taking them but can't find my memory card reader at the moment.

1) I map out the piece on the plywood using my form made from a door skin. Then I use a jigsaw to get a rough cut followed by a belt sander to get it to the exact dimension.

2) I've been drilling a series of small holes in the wood to let the fiberglass paste ooze through. Once it's installed and cured I've been going back to the holes that didn't ooze and using a hypodermic needle and more resin paste, injecting resin in behind the board. It's incredibly tedious and time-consuming but I feel quite confident that at least I'm filling all the voids. The first board was the worst but subsequent layers have fit better and better as the curve is softened due to the fiberglass-filled corners easing up a bit.

John - I still find that I need about 30oz of thickened resin to fill all the voids in between the plywood layers and that is using a ton of clamps and boards on the top and sides. On the floor I built a 2x4 brace that has wedges to exert clamping force on the bottom part of the transom - again using long pieces of 1x8 to spread out the clamping force.

I've now applied three layers of 1/4 inch marine ply in this way - it seems solid but it's certainly expensive and time consuming. I just don't know how else to press these pieces together...

[Helmar]

One thing that I have done is to drill a bunch of small holes in the transom that can be filled very easily with Evercoat Lite.
In those holes, I would put flat top screws that start to tighten evenly all over the first layer of transom.
Myself, I use Fiberlay's laminating resin. Coat the fiberglass transom, then the plywood that is going to get screwed to it.
Clamp it all across the top of the transom and whatever you have to jack the plywood out to the transom and start putting in the screws from the outside of the transom.

As long as they do not protrude through the plywood, leave them in.
Then the next piece of plywood, clamps to the top and wood screws though it from the inside out to the first layer of transom.
Once the second one is cured (depending on the mix, I wait 24 hours), the third and so on.
I build up to about 2 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches for the new heavy 4 strokes.

Remove the screws from the outside and fill with the evercoat lite and you will never know its been done.

One thing you might need to watch is that each side of the plywood is cut at a 90 degree angle, but make sure you adjust your blade to the angle for across the bottom.
I used a saber saw myself
The next sheet, you need to add just a tad to the bottom. Can't remember now if I added 1/4 or 1/2 inch to it but once you lay it in there, you will see it.

The rest of the project is not such a challenge.

[aguynamedchris]

Wow I hadn't realized how long it has been since I've been here and updated this. You might have thought that I'd given up but thats not the case. I've not had as much time with a few career changes in the past year but I have made progress and learned an awful lot in the past year. Here is some photos of the progress.

I did finally finish that transom and here is my advice for any other future first timer.

1) Use smaller, more flexible layers if you need a curve. 1/2 is too big and tends to crack.
2) Bite the bullet and use epoxy. Its so much easier to work with because of it's longer curing time and it bonds more tightly when you are dealing with curved stuff that wants to pull apart.
3) Build your own custom clamps from 2x4's, ready rod and some washers and nuts. This was what got me through. Wedging was too destructive as it tended to scar the wood and finding a wedging location on the stripped down interior of the boat proved difficult. Screwing down the wood with washers and screws also left a lot of scarring that required injecting resin into the holes after removing the screws. The big clamps made everything so much easier and will give you clamping power deep into the transom were normal clamps wont fit.

[ATTACH]14779[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]14780[/ATTACH]

I build this transom to a paranoid level of thick. In the end its 2" of marine grade plywood encased in epoxy with woven roving. I also added a couple of extra braces on either side of the main brace for good measure. Another reason I loved the epoxy was that I could use that pink hard insulation you can buy for insulating concrete and just cut out shapes you want and encase them in the cloth, using epoxy. You can't use poly because it will dissolve the foam. This allowed me to make quick and easy shapes for areas that I wanted to fill in such as the many small gaps under my floor. [ATTACH]14781[/ATTACH]

This is a photo of how I decided to close off the back of the boat. Using the foam I created a wall where the floor joists ended. In that wall I left some drainage holes as suggested so that any water that might get under the floor could drain back to the pump under the splashwell. For under the floor I was really torn about using the pourable foam beacuse a lot of feedback on it was that it tended to absorb water over time and could add hundreds of pounds of weight to the boat. In the end I liked using the housing insulation hard foam I just decided to fill all the voids under the floor with that instead of the pourable foam. It has the benefit of occupying nearly all of the space (thereby displacing any water). Its also entirely closed cell so it cant get waterlogged and it left room underneath the bottom layer for drainage to the back. Here is what it looked like when it was all in and before I put the floor on. [ATTACH]14782[/ATTACH]

There is still a lot more to add but at least this gets things a little bit caught up.

[Helmar]

Its good to see you making some good progress.
Its going to feel SO good once you get her closer to the water.

I am interested in that foam your using. I am not married to products that say Marine only. I understand like with Paints, in order to get the Marine Stamp of approval, you pretty much have to "Buy" into it.
For paint, I know of a brand of paint that is not Marine approved but this fellow is using it on his Sailboat and comes from the San Juans over to Port Townsend for a haul out and bottom paint every three years. Makes me wonder.....No blistering or anything....
For the foam, all I know is that it needs to be Closed Cell Foam.....Things change all the time but why would they use closed cell hard foam in a house? Maybe next to unsealed concrete ? Why not just seal the concrete...
I have pulled out hard foam that I was able to drop on the floor and Stand on it and it now flatten out, only a little water came out of that 4x4 block I pulled.
The whole underside of the transom bucket and transom bulkhead was sealed on this Bell Boy ??? No bilge pump or nothing. The cockpit floor was sealed (at one time) to the transom bulkhead but once it opened up, water was under the floor.
From that point, it got Sand in under the floor too. That must of went back and forth for Years sanding down the half round stringers. Real crap design for sure.

Even If that foam would absorb water over the years, you nor your kids would ever see it...

The only reason I brought this up, I used some of this foam insulation board stuff, put two together and made up a Hot Tub cover.
That cover after 3 years is now getting heavier to left open..........

I really didn't want to say anything here but I would not try that myself until I got more information on the foam being used.
I can see using it up under the gunnels or other places I could get to more easily..

I did put two PVC hot water pipe drains down each side of the keel from the cabin to the transom. Then boxed the transom were those pipes came into so the pump could pump it right out.
You get into the Dorsetts and the lowest point is up at the cabin bulkhead due to the way the keel cuts though the water.
I keep building this stuff as if its mine and I am going to be around forever
Meaning, I build in over kill.