Dorsett Farallon Restoration Project/The Beginning

[bruceb]

Here's a series (quite a few episodes, so set some time aside) that detail work on a SeaRay that has the basic process of tear out, rebuild, foam, and glassing deck. The shape and space of your boat is nowhere near the on in the series, and keep in mind, he's leaving in wood frame/stringers, which is ok as long as it's really glassed in and foamed, like he's doing. The vids are a starting point, anyway. By watching the whole series, gives you ideas you might simplify or streamline before you get started. Even if you're foaming it, I'd soak the underside of the ply and edges before permanently setting in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD1rK8Ail2I

[John Nelson]

Bruce thanks for posting that, I didn'n know how to tell him transom next. He could have used 6# pvc/ airex foam every where but the transom. I gasped when he used liquid nails to hold the transom parts together. He used a tube in the drain and got it all back together very good over all. I think the dorsett uses hi stringers like that too.

[bruceb]

Yes, John, there's a real good practice of restorers on these to get an assessment of a boat, and without a doubt, transom will be shot as well as the floor. Starting with an new transom, how to blend the two (floor,transom) together, then doing it. Exploring videos online are a new learning tool, different from reading tech sheets on resins, etc, for sure. Some of what exists online has bad info or practices, usually takes viewing a few different folk's series to get it right.
The whole polyester, vinyl ester, epoxy resin discussion gets heated for some, eventually it depends on how well you follow the general rules and instructions for handling the particular resin.
I like the idea of putting pvc in to route water, if it does penetrate foamed-in area. Cross drilling bottoms of stringers to allow water to move to stern bilge area. There's a name for this, just forgot...

[timgoodwin]

Been raining cats and dogs around here for four days but today I think I can get back to work. I'll post more later. Thanks for all the advice. I feel better about going forward now than I did let's say last year at this time.

[Helmar]

Been raining cats and dogs around here for four days but today I think I can get back to work. I'll post more later. Thanks for all the advice. I feel better about going forward now than I did let's say last year at this time.

Several things.
I have some pictures of what I did on the floors and transom's.
Then any cracks if found, I will dig them out as I remember needing at least 70 percent adhesion for the glassing or epoxying to stick. Then for the most part I will mix the silica powder with it to make a almost peanut butter type thickness and and will use a putty knife to apply it.

Also, for the most part, the transom is only held in place by the hull sides, keel and bottom. I bring the stringers back and glass to the transom under the floor. Then make bilge pump area (not on your boat, yours is up under the steps entering the cabin) and I also build a knee using the same layup of plywood from the keel to the transom.
The big thing is sealing the wood. I used to say I seal the wood twice with MarXite (hard to find) or a epoxy two part sealer, but I do the wood twice but then do the edges until it quits taking the sealer, some time 4 coats but I seal the hell out of the edges.
(I don't do Anything on a boat that I would not trust with my family aboard, safety is first) Every project I get into, I treat as its for Me and My family.

John has used the Cosa board? I have a piece of that and all you have to do is glass over it.
I would really like to see John write up something about the application process. I like the idea you can bend it around a gallon paint can, glass it and its Solid.

No liquid nails, No expansion foam unless its been Proven to be Closed Cell, No Gorilla glue. I will only use Fiberlay foam as I know that works well. Its a Adhesion closed cell foam too. Which means no oils on the bottom of the boat as this stuff will stick to everything that is clean. In fact, I have some I can't get out of the pot. ( I will get pictures of the products I use)

Removing and doing restoration on boat, I find now that I will not use caulking other than 3M-5200. I see the other stuff broken down way to often. This does not mean that there is anything wrong with the new products but until proven, not for me.

I have a Dorsett Catalina that needs everything from stringers up to do so I am kind of interested in the process John has used with the cosa? board to create stringers in it.

AND, of course this is just My opinion so in order to form your own, get others opinions on the process they use as there is more than just one way to do things right.
Oh, also on frames or some of the other process you do, keep the Weight factor in mind too. You don't want her to end up weighing more than from the factory.

So, that is my two cents ;-)

[timgoodwin]

@Helmar
Great stuff. I sure got a lot of information for 2 cents. Thank you very much. This is gonna sound really dumb but what do you mean by build a knee?

[Helmar]

@Helmar
Great stuff. I sure got a lot of information for 2 cents. Thank you very much. This is gonna sound really dumb but what do you mean by build a knee?

Sorry, good question. There are NO dumb questions unless you have asked the same question three times and don't remember it ;-)

This can More than be a personal preference. Lots of Depends On's too. Am I going to keep this boat. How safe do I want it. Am I going to foam under the floor boards?

Weight is always a factor to be considered into what you are doing. (here is were I am sure I said something like this before but tend to repeat myself at times)

Back in the day when these girls were designed and manufactured, we were well, kind of lean on power options. Lots of times they would end up running twin outboards on the back. This stuff starts getting heavy.
Most of the folks have just stored fuel under the splashwell area, same with batteries and whatever else you could cram back under there.

This might be more of a personal thing but the way I look at it, it will take X amount of power to get her up on plain and keep her there.
The more weight you put in the stearn, the more power (and Fuel) it will take to get her up and keep her there. You can always trim the new motors to help lift he butt up out of the water but anyway you look at it, its going going to take more power (and fuel) do make that happen.
Might not be very much but nevertheless, it will.

My thing is to build them as light as I can and keep them as balanced as I can.
I have proved its a better performer in doing so.

This is the reason I will try to move the fuel, batteries and whatever else that is heavy, up towards the balance point of the boat. By the time you load yourself and a passenger into the boat, coolers, or whatever, for the most part, all that weight is in the cockpit behind the helm and cabin bulkhead..

Several ways to think of how this works.
If your a pilot of a small plane, you Trim her up as so she will slide much easier though the air.
If a travel our a utility trailer, think of tongue weight. You get that wrong and well, you are all over the place trying to control it.

With your Dorsett, you have more cabin than cockpit. Your lowest point in that boat is just when you step down into the cabin (your bilge pump is right under those steps)
So, most of your weight is forward so its not quite as much of a balance issue with too much on the transom. But still, every little bit helps as having her just slip across the water without her butt dragging can't do anything but be a plus in performance.

Back to the transom (I can really wander off as I feel its all important in the whole restore)

That boat was designed in the San Francisco Bay area with all that wicked chop they have so that is one of the reasons the lowest point is right under the cabin. You will find she is Much better of a ride (not pounding) than the Skagits and Bell Boys. I own them both by the way and Love my 59 Skagit. But when it comes to a nice ride in rough water, the Dorsett will out perform my Skagit hands down. (sorry Skagit guys)

I have also seen this first hand. Marty and I were on what we called the Slough run and once out in the big lake heading to Coulon? park we were in one of the northwest designed boats and just getting Beat to death with the chop. All of a sudden up come one of our members in a San Francisco bay designed boats and he is setting at the helm holding a cup of coffee !!. Just slipping though the water, he speeds up and passes us with no effort.

So, with all of that said, back to the transom and what is the knee for.
When restoring this boats we have all this new Larger more heavy power options.
If you don't want any vibration on that transom, you build it thicker. Its tied to the boat by the hull sides, bottom and keel.
When you bring the cabin floor back, you tie that into the transom on most of the boats too.
Then if you look, most of them will have Keel or stringer Knee's that attach to the stringer and then to the transom. Some come up pretty high depending on the design.

Just go to the Internet and search Transom Knee's. You will find many different designs to help stabilize the vibration from the engines.
I think on yours, you have one knee that was from the keel up to the transom just under the cockpit floor, all the stringers may or may not have been tied to the transom. I would but a bunch of work.

For weight, I think your stringers had big holes cut into them to help cut the weight down, every little bit counts. I am thinking (could be wrong) they were 4" holes all in a row. Its still very structural but again seal the hell out of Any edges.

Hope this helps and was not confusing but I feel its all important. Can't be over safe in my book.

There you are with my 4 cents now ;-)

[bruceb]

Tim-
In this pic, the main surface is the inside of the vertical transom, where the motor hangs. The angled object in the center is a factory installed hollow glass knee. The knee is a traditional boat making element that stiffens the joining of the "floor" or bottom of a boat with the vertical transom surface most always in the centerline of a boat. You can find them from dingeys to large ships. In our case, Skagit did these with hollow fiberglass structures tied to the center longitudinal stringer (also hollow glass). The pieces on either side of the knee are hollow glass stiffening tubes I built out of structural cloth and e resin. Skagit found, like many other early glass boat builders, that weight was critical, so making elements of the boats out of hollow glass was a strong alternative to solid wood and saved weight. Helmar mentioned in an earlier post that doing restoration on these old boats has to address keeping weight to a minimum as the overall balance of the boat is a main consideration as to how they were engineered originally. Absolutely critical- older outboards and the combos they put on these new were generally lighter than modern 4 stroke outboards. The reconstruction of my transom included taking the time to document the weight of pieces taken out and weighing materials going back in. After all calculations were done, it weighed about 25 pounds extra due to resin soaking everything and the structural tubes, extra wood on forward bulkhead.

[Helmar]

Very good advice Bruce.
I forgot to mention the hollow tubes that are structural and Light weight.

Maybe explain how you made up those tubes would be good too. I am hoping you have a better way to create these than I do.
What I have been doing is making up a mockup the proper angle between the keel and transom, covering everything with wax paper and doing the glass layup.
Then a little trimming and fitting, I glass them in. They end up looking sweet like yours ;-)

On the Dorsett that got from Chuck Carey, she needs all the stringers replaced too and the only way I am thinking about doing that is to make them up, tallest one or biggest one first, then using one side in the heavy fiberglass roving like the Skagits did. Then trimming the others down and doing the same to the others.
I have a spinning transom laser that I plan on mounting on the center of the cockpit on the keel and adjusting it so forward and aft are on the mark.
In checking on the weight like you do, I might end up drilling 4 inch holes or possibly slots if need be. ( I just Love the smell of Fiberlays Fiberglass resin in the mornings ;-)

Chucks Dorsett Catalina will live on forever in his honor ;-)

The way I look at this, we have many ways of doing things and the more suggestions and opinions that we can come up with just helps people form their own opinion how they might proceed.
I feel its important to understand how and why we do things like this. Thanks for jumping in Bruce !!!

[bruceb]

Helmar and Tim-
So it is quite true that are a number of ways to accomplish the same thing, and as many ideas as there are posters on a site.....epoxy resin here, Fiberlay resin there....agree, i love the smell ! but my transom was all about using epoxy resin (System Three, Auburn, WA) and all their different products and paint=compatible.
Everywhere that it made practical sense, I used the original material the factory used (solid marine grade 3/8"ply, solid doug fir lumber, etc. Wanting to keep a level of originality. Added 1/4" ply to forward vertical surface of the transom to beef it up, bonded in place with thickened e resin. Used thickened e resin everywhere bonding materials (transom sandwich as well) but I wouldn't rule out using 3M 5200 for that, a great product.
Always when making a stringer or tube, make it longer- you can always trim. I layered the resin soaked special structural cloth (specific for e resin, as strong or stronger than woven roving), over a 2x3, with mylar stapled to the wood as a release material. Two layers, looking like the letter "c". Then trimmed the "c" tube, then just draped two more layers to make it a 4 sided tube. After dry and cured, it was easy to figure out how to fit it into the proper location using permanent markers, cutting then grinding with a belt sander to fit precisely. Bonded in place with thickened epoxy and then tabbed in with structural cloth and resin.
Pic of draped cloth 1) set up on 2x3, 2)cross section of finished tube 3)forward bonded location contacting inside of hull and forward bulkhead base.
Have never made a stringer, but would just make it like the letter "c" , trim to fit bottom of boat and place open end to inside of hull, tab in place.