16ft Bell Boy Restore

[Helmar]

Another quick update. Got the two stringer down in Fiberfiller. Next the two outside ones, then the keel stringer.

[Helmar]

Helmar,

I have a couple of questions about the material your using...........



Why did you choose white cedar? Is there something about it that makes it better for stringers??



Do you fiberglass both sides of the foam board? or, just one side?

I am thinking materials for my boat, and wondering if these would be better than the plywood I had planned on using???

Well, its what we had for one and cedar tends to last longer. I have seen stringers made out of MDO plywood, seen then made from Fir. I could have just made up a mock up stringer and then coated it with the stitched roving.

The main thing I was going as light weight as I could as using the PVC foam board but with several layers of mat and roving. Once I get closer you will see as I will have pictures of the process.

The cabin bulkhead and map dash I am thinking might be done out of foam PVC board as well. It will add a little more weight to the boat but nothing will ever rot out..

John Nelson has made most of his Uniflite out of PVC and was also to bend a tight radius, like around a 1qt paint can, mat, roving, mat, roving.

I might give this more thought as I get closer as of course, you just paint this product were I might want the map dash and bulkheads out of mahogany plywood..
I am kind of leaning that way as would like to jazz this up some and not have just a painted looking fishing boat.

The transom was put in with the Green plywood, super dry to the point, I cut the Fiberlay P-16 fiberglass resin with the Fiberlay styrene monomer to thin out the resin even more. I was able to let the wood soak it up. I mean it Really soaked it up.

When the floor goes down, there will be no screws, just glassed down. Strips of Mat on the tops of the stringers, saturated with resin, then the fiberglassed side of the foam board goes down with some weight on top to make sure its touching everywhere..

The thing is, if you use the PCV board with mat and roving, it will not hold a screw. You have to use nuts and bolts for your fasteners and well, there are some places that is not so easy to do..

I wish I had some pictures of John Nelsons build as he was looking for more cockpit space so he built a stainless steel pipe mounting system off the back of his Uniflite and did away with the splashwell and used the PVC across the back of his boat to give himself more freeboard in rough water..

Once I get the stringers in, floor down, then I will decide how much mahogany I want showing.. Hell, I might just make a show boat out of this one as I really like these old Bell Boys just as much as my Skagits.

So, if I do these stringers like I am doing, covering them with the stitched roving (two or three layers) and then at least a layer of stiched roving between the stringers on the hull, then adding the closed cell adhesive floatation foam under the floor in between the stringers, this this hull should Bounce over rock croppings.

When I am buying any wood, I use my Moisture Meter. In fact this company. http://www.lignomatusa.com/meters/mini-ligno-md/
Mine is not digital as I have had it for Years, mine just has lights that give me the moisture in percents. I stick the end grain for the most part. When they say Kiln dried wood anymore, it just means they made a attempt to dry it out a little..
The good stuff has to come from like Edensaw like I used up in Port Townsend or CrossCut who has all the special woods.

But then again, good dry marine plywood, glass resin the crap out of it so no moisture gets to it and its going outlast Our kids. You don't need to to nutso like I do some times.

Not that I would ever think about it, but the saying, There is more than one way to skin a cat

[pats]

Helmar,

I have a couple of questions about the material your using...........

Once all of these are in place, they will be covered with the stitched roving so the stringers are pretty much nothing other than something to hold the stitched roving in place until its cured. I wanted them to be a little wider than the 1/2" stringers that were in it so this is white cedar that is 1".

Why did you choose white cedar? Is there something about it that makes it better for stringers??

The floor will be fiberglass matt and cloth over PVC 1/2" foam board, then the adhesive closed cell flotation foam under the floor. This thing should Bounce over rock croppings under the surface of the water..
I am keeping a close eye on weight. I think once I am done, I should be damn close to the proper weight it should be.

Do you fiberglass both sides of the foam board? or, just one side?

I am thinking materials for my boat, and wondering if these would be better than the plywood I had planned on using???

[Helmar]

Excellent workmanship ! ! !

I enjoy studying your pictures. Every time you have a new post, I get to learn a little something new. Sometimes, it's how to do it, or technique to do it, or the tools to do it with. It's always very interesting. I'm following your build very closely, and I will most likely use some of your techniques and ideas. I have been looking through your earlier restoration posts to see how you designed other projects. I'm trying to figure out some designs I want to try on my boat.

I'm still working on my next progress update, I hope to be finished in a few days. I'm looking forward to your next post........

Don't forget, this just My way of doing things and how I was trained.

Here is just a few pic's of moving forward. I have the other stringer cut and now making the cradle system as so once these are set, they will be held in place with weight on top of them to hold them to the hull while setting in the fiberfiller to cure. The hardest part is keeping my 205 lbs out and off the hull bottom so I have to suspend myself with planks that are setting on the chine edge.

I was able to get so close I didn't leave very much space for the fiberfiller but really don't need it. I used the power plane to get it even closer when I had to change the degrees.

Once all of these are in place, they will be covered with the stitched roving so the stringers are pretty much nothing other than something to hold the stitched roving in place until its cured. I wanted them to be a little wider than the 1/2" stringers that were in it so this is white cedar that is 1".

I will keep plugging away at it.

[pats]

Excellent workmanship ! ! !

I enjoy studying your pictures. Every time you have a new post, I get to learn a little something new. Sometimes, it's how to do it, or technique to do it, or the tools to do it with. It's always very interesting. I'm following your build very closely, and I will most likely use some of your techniques and ideas. I have been looking through your earlier restoration posts to see how you designed other projects. I'm trying to figure out some designs I want to try on my boat.

I'm still working on my next progress update, I hope to be finished in a few days. I'm looking forward to your next post........

[Helmar]

Made a little progress.
Going to pull the other stringer out, get one fit to it and then mix up the fiberfiller to seat them into. Doing the two at a time, I can put some weight on both of them and crank up the heat in the shop.
Slow going but getting there.

One thing I can tell you is if you don't have a band saw its going to be really hard to cut your angles as with the saber saw, the blade will want to wander all over the place.
Found this little thing at Harbor Freight as a example that would also work but most of the time you can find band saws for around 50 bucks on the Craiglist or Marketplace, use it for your stringers and then just sell it when your done.. My shop is FULL of equipment but the nice part, I put Everything on wheels were I can just pull it out from the wall and place it where I need it.

The pictures will show the one stringer that has been cut and trued for placement. No need to go nutso on how close you have it to the proper angle, just means a little less fiberfiller will be needed.

[Helmar]

"The floor will be fiberglass matt and cloth over PVC 1/2" foam board, then the adhesive closed cell flotation foam under the floor."
Curious why you chose foam board on this one?
Looking good, watch out though, eating all those popsicles will catch up with you

Hi Kelly
Well, I have seen it done but mainly for larger boats to help cut the weight, or so they say, and I have always been interested in the process so going to do this on my boat for the experience.
I will Never have to replace the floor in it.
Everything inside the cockpit will fold down and building the structure as to hold a pot puller as well so Cindy and I can use it for crabbing as well as fishing.

[Kelly]

"The floor will be fiberglass matt and cloth over PVC 1/2" foam board, then the adhesive closed cell flotation foam under the floor."
Curious why you chose foam board on this one?
Looking good, watch out though, eating all those popsicles will catch up with you

[Helmar]

Update to were I am now. Things have been kind of slow with the damn feet thing (plantar fasciitis), plus the old knees. I have one bench setup with Eds cabin door project and poking away at it. Going for no square corners on any of it. Pretty sure he will like it.

So with the Bell Boy I pulled one of the port side stringer out after making up the pattern.
First picture is the tools I am using to get my angles once the stringer starts moving forward up the boat.
Then you can see were I put a straight edge and pop cycle sticks to give the dept that I need.
I wrote down the changes in the degrees on the pop cycle sticks so I know when to turn the angle of the blade.

These stringers will be bedded down in some FiberFiller (I think I said that before) and I have done enough of the angle cutting like this that its easy for me to do. It does not take me much longer to fit it almost flat to the hull and really, they don't need to be but just means less FiberFiller I need to use is all.
Nothing is perfect but I always like getting as close as I can..

The last photo is two of my favorite tools I use now.. I can trim the excess stringer tabs away with the saw cutting blade and then I use the rough blade like a sanding block and knock down the rest of the area to give myself at least 75% fresh glass surface to fiberglass too. I will go for 100% until the old knees start giving out.

Once this stringer is cut and fitted, I will build up a jig that will go over the top as so set some weight on it so it beds down as tight as I can get it between the stringer and hull.

I use the small laser just to keep myself in check but really, its overkill I think. This whole thing could be done with string but I have marks Everywhere but have to go back and check from time to time as to remember what the marks are...Dummy me did not write down what all of them were.

I didn't get any pictures of the one stringer out of the boat as the bed under it, I still need to do some clean up work with the wood chisel.

The big plan is (and again, might be over kill) to remove and replace the stringers one at a time. I have some 2x8's that go across from chine edge to chine edge that I can walk on and keep my 200 plus pounds from stepping on the hull and moving it.. I was you might say, suspended above the hull in its natural state to make sure my pattern was dead on.
I found if I take a little more time with my patterns, it saves me Many trips in and out of the boat doing the final fitting.
One of my problems, I tend to leave more wood than I should. I can always take some more wood off but its hard to put it back on....So, with the laser or straight edge, I mark it and have the power plane to take it down if need be. Because I am going to make fiberglass stringers over the wood for a Forever fix, I will use the trim router and jig to round off the tops for the stitched matt to go over the tops of the stringers without leaving any voids.

The floor will be fiberglass matt and cloth over PVC 1/2" foam board, then the adhesive closed cell flotation foam under the floor. This thing should Bounce over rock croppings under the surface of the water..
I am keeping a close eye on weight. I think once I am done, I should be damn close to the proper weight it should be.

Again, this is not Rocket Science. Stringers are fiberglassed to the hull, sealed with resin, covered with resin and even if a wood floor, that is all we are trying to do here. Replace the stringers and seal it all up. So, I am kind of going over kill you might say .

After all these years, its hard for me to believe I am really building my Own classie from the Keel Up !!!

The one thing that would make this nice is if I did have a paying job in the next stall to help finance this build. So, any takers on needing any structure work or fiberglass work, let me know

Back at it.
Helmar

[pats]

Helmar.

You've given me a lot to think about....................but a good sound basis to start from. I like the idea of using the hot glue gun to mount the laser. Another way I thought of to make sure there is no twist in the chines. Mark a line on the outside of the boat where it rests on each of the trailer bunks. If the boat moves or twists, the lines will show it. If the boat does move, just nudge it back into place. Does this idea sound like it might work? I'll include a picture of the boat on the trailer, so that you can understand what I'm trying to describe.

Another way is from port to starboard, cut some 2x2's or something just the width so they set on the chine edge. From that, you can clamp....(or hot glue).... some vertical pieces down to the hull next to the stringer,.........("all the way across")

If I took your above quoted idea. and made two as a "movement measuring" template. Then, placed one near the cabin bulkhead and the other near the transom, in an exact marked spot for each. If for some reason they didn't fit properly, you would know the boat had shifted or twisted. And you could use them to help re-align the boat back into a straight position. I'm not sure that I will have the same level area to work on the boat each time I go. Maybe these "ideas" will allow me to make sure the boat is straight where ever I work on it???

I know that you used Marine Grade Fir Plywood for the transom. What type of wood are you going to use for the stringers? I think earlier you indicated that you were going to use Marine Fir Plywood, are you still going to? I am keeping a sharp eye on your post, and I'm very interested in how you are going to install the stringers.The leveling, fillets, fiber glassing, the process and techniques that you use. I had planned on using two 3/4" pieces of plywood on my transom. But after seeing your 2" transom, I'm going to add a piece of 1/2" plywood to mine for a total of 2". It ought to be tough enough for just about any motor

What's next after you finish the stringers? Gas tanks, seating, cabin bulkhead, motors, steering??? I'm interested in what you choose for materials, designs, techniques. I've been looking through the restoration forum at some of your seating / Gas tank designs. I was impressed. I'm trying to decide on some different designs for my boat also. I hoping for under floor tanks, I don't know how much room there is under the floor yet. On one of my family christmas trips, I stopped in Albuquerque, NM, and talked to an aluminum welder/fabricator about making the gas tanks. I was wondering if he could modify a couple of used tanks I was looking at on ebay. Do you know of a good source for used aluminum tanks???

Its almost midnight here, and I'm wore out. I still have a lot of things to figure out, and I still need to do a progress report on my last trip. I made a couple of mistakes that only a beginner could. You'll probably get a kick out of them.............

I'm looking forward to your next post!

[Helmar]

Just a quick update.
I got that last piece glassed in and ran the fiberfiller to seal the last one in.
I think before I grind down and put the cap on the transom, I will get after the stringers, starting shortest one first.

I had to hot glue the laser level in place and had to fuss with it so decided, Ok, I got things were they need to be so now I will make up some line up marks and a jig that will hold the stringer in place once I bed it down into the fiberfiller fillet.

So, again, a Laser is not necessary as long as you can level her up on a floor. Level it on the floor, then the trailer.
Measure from the floor up to the chine edges forward and aft to make sure no twisting.

The thing that you Don't want is if its on a roller trailer to have those rollers pushing up on the hull when you pull your stingers.

Like on mine, she is on a Flat trailer and on a Flat concrete floor measurements are the same from the floor and trailer up to the chine edges on both sides of boat.
That is really all you need however you do it as you don't want any twist in the boat hull. (if there is, your going to be fighting the steering all the time, like she will be wanting to pull one side or the other)

You can use strings taped to the boat for your lines you have to follow. Another way is from port to starboard, cut some 2x2's or something just the width so they set on the chine edge. From that, you can clamp some vertical pieces down to the hull next to the stringer,...If you are off, that is what they make power planes for so get as close as you can to the height you need and the angle of the bottom of your stringers to you have as close to a flush fit the hull.

It seems as I am explaining all this as it making it sound like its really hard to do when its not.

I am going to do my outside stringers first with a jig across the rest of them to know what the height needs to be.
The reason I am doing this way is that my stringers are so rotten in places that they have high and lows forward and aft as some of them are flattened out or bulged out. I just need a clean line.
If I am off, I can use the laser or strings with the power plain to take the tops down.
With mine also I need to round the tops so I will run the router down both sides to round the tops for the stitched matt roving to roll over the tops like I did with my samples shown back a few threads.

Lets pretend we are just using 1 x 4;s, You fit your 1x4 to the hull. Once you have a good fit to the hull. then this is were you can mark the top of the stringer that will need be cut. This could be done with a skill saw, very slowly of course. If need be clean up with the power plane.

Things will make more sense once I get mine going in and have pictures. I should have just waited with this but you should be able to follow me here.

Oh yeah, It was easy for me to spit this boat apart so I just raised up the cabin top.
I need flip it and do the wood under the gunnels and a few other ribs, flip it back over and hang it back up in the rafters like it is now.

[Helmar]

Helmar,

Thanks for all the information. I have been keeping a close watch on this post and your progress. As you know, I have the same tasks ahead of me. I have recently completed another trip to work on my boat. Since arriving home from the trip, I feel like I have been "bushwacked" by all the things that need to be done at home, errands, and Christmas travel, etc., (1 step forward, 3 steps back). I still need to write a post on the progress I made on my boat on this last trip. Hopefully, I can do it soon.

Once again; after reading your posts, and re-reading them until I think I understand, I have some questions:

When you use the laser, is the boat level? I tried looking at the pictures, but I couldn't tell if it was on the trailer or suspended by straps. Either way, do you make sure the boat is level before you use the laser? Or does it matter? I leveled my boat on the trailer. I have a self-leveling laser, that I mounted in the center of the cockpit. I can re-mount it in the same place by using the same mounting screw holes. I marked 90 180 270 360 degrees. By using 90 degrees then turning it to 270 degrees, I leveled the boat side to side. I used 180 degrees and 360 degrees to make sure the boat was sitting straight on the trailer, not twisted or out of shape - front to back. To make the boat level front to back, I would have to use the trailer jack at the front of the trailer. Will I need to level the boat front to back using the trailer jack, to get an accurate reading from the laser? I think I can set the laser on a level spot and "jam" the laser in place if it's necessary to have a stationery line to measure from. Does the boat need to be level front to back, or just side to side? Or both? I am concerned about maintaining the straightness of the chines. After reading how you do it, I'm not sure I am doing it correctly.

I'm including some pictures so that you may understand what I'm trying to describe. I know what you mean when you say " it's hard to paint pictures with words". I have a few more questions, but tomorrows another day.

You have a very informative post going on, keep up the good work...............

I should have stated that the Laser is a Reference point. I have Never seen any of these boats that you can be Dead On as it seems every one of them have slipped or was sloppy in the mold.
The boat does not have to be level but you need something to measure from.
Today, I had to Hot glue my laser were I needed it.
So, the key is start from the stearn. Chine edges equal on the trailer. The whole idea is like you stated, No twist in the hull.

Mine is on a flat bed trailer and I just use the laser to shoot a line equal on both sides, measure down to the chine edges to make sure no twist, both port and starboard as the same measurements.

I will try to get a picture as I put the laser on the transom skin. Measure up from the chine edge on both sides and make your marks both port and starboard. I run a line between them to use as what I level too with the laser. Then shoot it down the keel to the bow.
My laser will do both vertical and horizontal at the same time giving me cross hair lines. From the horizontal line, I measure down from the laser line to the chine edge on both sides forward to make sure no twist in the boat.

More later...
Helmar

[pats]

Originally posted by pats View Post in Classic Boat Sightings

Hi Guys,

• Helmar,
  
  I'm going to copy your last reply, and reply to it in the Boat Restoration forum. In your 16' Bell Boy Restore post. Your reply has some very good and important information, that coincides with your Bell Boy Restoration Project. I don't want the information to be obscured or "lost" here in the Classic Boat Sightings. Someday, someone like myself (a beginner) will be desperately needing it. I hope that my doing this doesn't offend or break the rules.....

Sorry about taking so long to reply, I've been out of town taking care of Christmas visits . Jared, thanks for the pictures of the stringers. Were the stringers just tabbed in? I think on my 1964 model, the stringers sat on a sheet of 1/2'' plywood. Did yours? From the description in your pictures it says that your going to modify your splash well for a bench seat. I would be interested in seeing your progress on that, and your design. I'm going to reach a point very soon on my boat, that changes or modifications would be very easy. I've been looking at a re-build that Helmar did on fuel tanks and thinking about using the same idea or design. I've also been keeping a sharp eye on Helmar's latest posts about his Bell Boy restoration. Especially, the fiberglass testing on the stringers. Thanks again for the pictures, post a few more if you have time.

For the most part, I think your going to find MDO plywood in them. Not sure about the 64 model as you notice the hull design changed, Allot !. Its about the time they figured out the V Hull design for a better ride. On the early ones, they stuck her nose pretty deep in the water so she could handle the choppy waters of the San Francisco Bay waters were she was designed. The cabin top design did not change much at all.

On my Bell Boy, I am still in the process of putting in the transom. One more sheet of 1/2" exterior Green plywood and then its time to start on the keel stringer..
There are many ways people can put in the stringers. Me, I work with the laser as I will just set it back up and shoot the vertical and horizontal line down the keel in which I just measure down from my laser line.

Another way I have seen this done is using a string line for level. You run the string just above the stringer from the bow to the stearn and then across from port to starboard. I just never came up with a good way of holding the string tight other than Gorilla tape. If you go across the top of the keel stringer and then equal distance down from the chine edge, you can get it that way too.

I also have a couple of small laser levels that I use that I can place right next to the stringer and shoot my line too. That works just as well as the spinning laser on the transom. No need for so much measuring.

I also have a straight edge board that I made up that I lay right on top of the old stringer, then I use pop cycle sticks from the top top of the stringer down to the hull. (once I get to that point, I will have pictures to share) I take that out and lay it on my keel board that will need the bottom cut to fit the hull. Kind of hard to explain and draw a picture with words.....
I also use a degree angle gauge where the hull starts to change angles as I am moving forward. I start out maybe ever 8" from the stearn forward and were the hull starts changing, I write the degree angle change on the pop cycle stick so I know to change the angle of the saw. When I get closer to the bow, that changes fast so maybe every 4 inch's I will put a pop cycle stick and write down the change of angel to cut.
Then its in and out of the boat fitting with the power plane or draw knife (mostly power plane) until I get the fit I need..

Once I have a good fit, then I mix up several batches of FiberFilller to lay down just under the keel stringer to bed the keel stinger on. Use whatever squeezes out on the sides to make a nice fillet (like you would do caulking a bath tub or shower) to help when the stitched roving/matt, to go over the stringers. Also allowing for the height of the bottom of floor to nest on it.

Hope I did not make this too confusing. Once I get to that step, I will make sure to show pictures.

Helmar,

Thanks for all the information. I have been keeping a close watch on this post and your progress. As you know, I have the same tasks ahead of me. I have recently completed another trip to work on my boat. Since arriving home from the trip, I feel like I have been "bushwacked" by all the things that need to be done at home, errands, and Christmas travel, etc., (1 step forward, 3 steps back). I still need to write a post on the progress I made on my boat on this last trip. Hopefully, I can do it soon.

Once again; after reading your posts, and re-reading them until I think I understand, I have some questions:

When you use the laser, is the boat level? I tried looking at the pictures, but I couldn't tell if it was on the trailer or suspended by straps. Either way, do you make sure the boat is level before you use the laser? Or does it matter? I leveled my boat on the trailer. I have a self-leveling laser, that I mounted in the center of the cockpit. I can re-mount it in the same place by using the same mounting screw holes. I marked 90 180 270 360 degrees. By using 90 degrees then turning it to 270 degrees, I leveled the boat side to side. I used 180 degrees and 360 degrees to make sure the boat was sitting straight on the trailer, not twisted or out of shape - front to back. To make the boat level front to back, I would have to use the trailer jack at the front of the trailer. Will I need to level the boat front to back using the trailer jack, to get an accurate reading from the laser? I think I can set the laser on a level spot and "jam" the laser in place if it's necessary to have a stationery line to measure from. Does the boat need to be level front to back, or just side to side? Or both? I am concerned about maintaining the straightness of the chines. After reading how you do it, I'm not sure I am doing it correctly.

I'm including some pictures so that you may understand what I'm trying to describe. I know what you mean when you say " it's hard to paint pictures with words". I have a few more questions, but tomorrows another day.

You have a very informative post going on, keep up the good work...............

[Helmar]

I have three 1/2" sheets in and the forth and final one might go into today, then its starting on the stringers.

[Helmar]

I was wrong on the year of my little 16ft Bell Boy Express. After wading though all the documentation, its showing my was a late 1957 Bell Boy Express. Ok by me.
I do have a area to look for the badge on these as they fiberglassed them onto the inside of the hull just about under the cabin windshield on the starboard side. I have never looked on this one but will now.

Anyway, on the third layup of the transom build so the picture all look alike now other than one more 1/2" thickness on the transom.
Once the transom is in, then I will go after the stringers.