Bell Boy

[Ronald64]

I am new to this board but you may know me from Goldenstateglassics down South in California....(I got a big mouth). I am looking for a replacement for my broken Seafair Sedan and would like to know what you guys think of the Bell Boy 404. Mostly I am concerned with how they handle the choppy water since I mainly boat in SF Bay. I love the look of the Skagits but have heard they are rough rides in chop. The Bell Boy hulls look a lot like the Skagits and I am wondering what the ride is like. My Sedan hull broke on me in choppy water which is why the concern. I like the look of the Bell Boy and have long time family ties to Bellingham so I am really into them. Any advice or experiences are greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ron Henry (Ronald64)

[Tim McCrain]

Ron,

I'm no expert, but I can share what I've been able to gather from the experts I've spoken to that led me to decide to rebuild my 404 Sedan Convertible even though the consensus is that they don't ride well in chop at any kind of speed.

What I've learned by talking to more experienced folks is that very few, if any, of the "larger" boats from this era ride well in rough water due to their hull design. When you consider everything that they built into them, add in a family and their gear, and on top of that the requirement that they plane with modest horsepower compared to modern propulsion, it all adds up to needing a nearly flat hull at the rear. Which, of course, results in pounding in rough water.

I was told that it was easy to smooth out the ride on one of these, when I asked how the answer was "Slow down." It works really well on my Sabrecraft so I am anticipating it will work well with the 404.



Tim

[Skagitguy]

Ron, I have had a number of Skagit 17' and a few other models Skagit's. All of them rode rough. Look at the Dorsett line. Much better hull design and will take any kind of water. Chuck

[John Berg]

pics?

Ron, I would love to see some pics of your broken hull and find out the reason for it. I smash my Skagit 20 on top of waves out in the sound north of Seattle with 3 bags of 60lb concrete in the bow and havent broke it yet. Hitting a trench has stopped the boat and popped the windshield out but no breaks in the hull. Yeah, at the wrong speed they're rough but the beauty of the flat hull is shallow draft. Dont know if you beach it in your bay but shallow draft is a plus. Cant wait to visit your bay in my boat. John

[Ronald64]

I got a ride in a 404 today

First thanks for the replies. I got a chance to go look at and ride in a 1960 404 Express today. It was a really cool boat. Needs some TLC and resto but all in all could be put to use right away. Specially if I hang the ETEC on her. My thoughts on the ride...gets on plane fast, drafts crazy high. Man that freeboard is awesome. My little girls won't be flying over the side of that one. Went over some small chop and a wake here and there...pretty rough. I also found it handled a bit sluggish. Didn't respond as quick as I would have really wanted. We were in some current and the owner blamed it on that but...The motor cavitated a lot specially in turns. It is an 83 Johnson 90 V4. I thought maybe it was mounted too high but the owner claims that's where it should be. The cavitation caused a loss of both power and added to the sluggish response. In truth I would have trailered it home had I not ridden in it and started to have second thoughts. So as I was coming home I was thinking maybe I have to recalibrate my expectations on the ride. Also..almost verbatim, I thought the same thing that Tim posted. So I have not ruled that boat out yet but am thinking about it some more. I was also looking a clean '58 404. I dig the fins but they are totally not practical for fishing. They also add about 3" of height to the freeboard...I'd need a foot stool to get up and over the fins to net a fish.

Ron

[Ronald64]

Reason for the break

First here's my baby before




Here she is on July 5th






It looks like it was a bad patch from a previous owner that failed. You can see the old gelcoat underneath. I was going to get it repaired but now I see cracks along the whole length of the starboard stepchine and parts of the port side step chine. I just think the hull was damaged beyond any good repair that I am willing to do at this point. I already replaced and glassed in a new floor and stringers. I have spent a lot of time and now after this I just feel it's time to move on. That Seafair was the BEST riding boat on a choppy day of any boat her class I have ridden in.

Ron

[Marty Loken (Norseboater)]

Rough-Water Boat Choices....

Ron -

After reading your description of a BB404 ride, and considering that you do most of your boating on San Francisco Bay, I'd recommend that you either 1) find a way to repair you nice Seafair Sedan, 2) Buy another Seafair Sedan that hasn't been abused and/or poorly repaired, or 3) Acquire a Dorsett Farallon, which will handle rougher water than your 17-foot Glasspar. (If you don't want a 21-footer, then get a smaller Dorsett San Juan...but for S.F. Bay you want to stick with the soft-riding characteristics of either Glasspar or Dorsett.

- Marty

[ChuckB]

Ron:
You won't find a better riding boat than your Seafair. Though early Seafair's had a flex point where the cabin bulkheads are attached to the hull, the later fiberglass stringer hulls were more stiff. It looks to me as if the previous owner hit something really hard and compromised the hull. Many years ago I rode a Seafair over the Columbia Bar in and out of Illwaco and that boat, a '59, never had any kind of structural failure. The flat bottom boats are tough, but are really tough on you. I've had 3 Glasspars and now a 19' Sabrecraft Catalina. The semi V compromise Hulls are as tough as any and ride well. Glasspar, Dorsett, ans Sabrecraft are all similar, and as history shows, all the others followed.
Just my 2 cents...
Chuck B

[Ronald64]

Thanks guys.
I love that Seafair. I always seem to have a crowd onboard so was thinking of stepping up to the ferry class. Does anyone know if the Club Mariner hull is similar to the Seafair? I want to check out the Dorsetts for sure. They are at the top of my list. Sabercraft wasn't even on my radar....thanks for the tip. I have not completely ruled out fixing her, or getting another Sedan yet. I could easily rig out a different Sedan with the stuff I have but I want to explore some options with the new motor and all. Gives me a good reason to look at new old boats

Ron

[Ronald64]

Seafair will get fixed

Marty, chuck, and Tim et al. Thanks so much for the advice and responses. I cut my teeth in my youth boating and fishing Salmon in the Sound...I lived in Edmonds from age 8-15...also had a few scary times off Lummi Island (family there), Foxes Spit and Ross Lake...stories for my kids opcorn1:. Since I know what you boat in I trust your judgement immensly so thanks again. After your advice and much thought I have decided to get her fixed. Or at least begin exploring how badly damaged she truly is. The Seafairs do ride really well, we have already put a good amount of work and time into her (and fricken money), and I hate to walk away at this point. I am still on the lookout for a Farallon or San Juan and if one comes up I will likely sell the Sedan when she is fixed. Thanks again guys...your awesome.

Ron (Ronald64)

[Tim_Mattson]

Ron ,
I did a quick cosmetic resto on mine and paid dearly by not foaming it as much as I should have.I eventually intend to re-do the old stringers and will basically lay Woven roving down the inside outer Foot of the Hull,basically doubling up the Step Chine area I see was pretty thin.I put Chopped strand from my new floor skin to the cockpit sides but no Woven......
Your feet can feel the water and if you pile drive off a wave in the denser Salt water,it is more like concrete than water.
Sure looks like the old Trailer and a Rough Road also had something to do with the original Damage the prior owner had to fix.....looks like the new floors ended just inside there.Or maybe a Toolbox or anchor in that storage area?
I`m even leaning towards raising the floors and doing a crossways set of bulkheads to build the floors up 4`` or so with foamed corners.
I like to drive standing up high and while a low center of gravity and high freeboard are cool ,they put you below water level when loaded up with gear and friends.
That Seafair also looks like it had an Inboard at one time?????
TimM

[Ronald64]

Ron ,
That Seafair also looks like it had an Inboard at one time?????
TimM

Very astute! She's a one-of-a-kind. Yes she was an I/O. That's why I have a lot of space in the cockpit. Because it was an I/O it has 1 x 8 original wood-on-foam stringers..(True rough sawn 1 x 8). When I replaced the stringers and floor I replaced them with 2 x 8 The 2 x 8 lay on 1 x 4 crossway braces every 2 ft. I used 5/8 ply and poured foam in every open space under the floor except a bilge channel between the stringers. I also put my batteries up front under the V-Berth where you see "a Toolbox". I had a gel battery on each side. Maybe that contributed to the crack??? I wouldn't think so though. The floor and stringers are really solid and she feels really stout in the chop. No twisting or creaking...until of course the hull broke. I really think it was due to a bad patch. I have a guy that is going to start working on it Saturday so I'll take it day by day. If it looks like a straight forward fix...heck it's fiberglass...then it should be fine. The only thing is you know and I know repaired fiberglass can be stronger than original, but my wife is now questioning whether she will ride in the boat on the Bay after it is fixed....so whattya do? Either way I'll get her fixed. She's worth a lot more towards a different boat if she floats.

Ron

[Ronald64]

Some pics

I know you all like pics so here are some. Funny as I was looking at the pic of the stripped out and gutted hull I exploded the pic and saw the patch that failed. I feel really stupid that it wasn't obvious to me back then but to be honest we totally missed it I cropped it out from the pic so you can all see it clearly...at least I am now convinced that was the problem. The rest are some of the stringers, foam, floor, transom conversion and an aluminum bracket we had made to beef up the transom for the ETEC. Also pics of fun.

Ron

[John Berg]

Like the ETEC?

I have an 06 ETEC 90 on my 20' Skagit. And love it. How do you like yours? John

[Tim_Mattson]

Thanx for more info Ron,
Having my older OB version sink from wind waves makes me look closer at the splashwell.
Seeing broken boats at the welded Boat factory led me to see why things broke.....usually a load with no straps or repairs done to one side but not the other......Toolboxes and Batteries were usually nearby.
As they said,"Anybody can overbuild a boat,build it light AND strong and it can outperform the heavy but long lasting counterpart.
The trick is to balance the builds to the use....and budget.
The Inboard may have had a huge drop way back which could have made the perforation you got to see open up so wildy.
I also still think boats trailered do see some forces we don`t realize are occuring.
Getting bunks to sit against the tapered hull is sorta tough.
The E-Tec has only one flaw,the sound of running water that makes one want to pee.....happens every time my fishing buddy stops over to say hi.
Tim M