Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Keeping Boats Afloat...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Keeping Boats Afloat...

    Tim may not have viewed the sinking of his boat as a public service, but in a way that's what it has become--a wakeup call that's helping many of us question the safety of our boats, and ask how we might be able to prevent future submersions.

    Obviously, as Tim has said, he made a few mistakes that compounded, contributing to the sinking. But that's how these things tend to happen: a few oversights, a small error or two, unusual water conditions and POW, you're in trouble.

    In no particular order, here are some of the thoughts I've been having on the subject:

    * Most of our boats are already pretty safe, at least in the conditions in which we tend to take them out: decent weather and relatively calm water; splashwells on most of our cruisers and many of our runabouts that generally keep water out of the boat; not a lot of through-hull fittings that can fail, etc.

    * Personally speaking, I don't think I'll ever again run a boat (except maybe in an event like the Slough Run, where you're asking for trouble anyway) that doesn't have a good splashwell. While Tim's boat obviously had a splashwell, the drain plugs were left in the box, allowing water-weight to build up inside the splashwell...probably pushing the stern down just enough that waves were able to wash over the inner transom, and into the cockpit area. Once water started flowing into the hull over the transom it accelerated into a cascade, sinking the boat within minutes. (So, if you have a splashwell, make sure it drains any water that gets into the splashwell area!)

    * Foam, foam and more foam...or other types of floatation if you prefer. Tim's accident makes me laugh out loud at some of the folks who still argue--incredibly!--that floatation foam isn't a good idea. I know that many of the Anti-Foamers associate foam with the old, water-permeable junk that some boatbuilders jammed into bilges back in the 1950's, '60's and '70's, but the modern closed-cell foam products are just that: they do not absorb water, except in situations or small areas where the foam bubbles (cells) have been punctured or crushed, and in our boats that is probably not more than 1% of the foam mass under your cockpit floor or elsewhere in your hull. So, if you've been reluctant to embrace floatation foam, GET OVER IT! The stuff will support as astounding amount of weight, and if Tim had been fortunate enough to have foam under his entire cockpit floor (let alone elsewhere), his boat would never have gone to the bottom the way it did. (To give you an example of foam's ability to keep things afloat, the foam I poured under the cockpit floor of my old 17 Skagit express would have supported 2,200 pounds of weight--considerably more than the boat weighed. Of course, some of the boat was wood, too, which would have provide a bit of additional floatation...but the point is that if you can achieve positive buoyancy with a product that is so relatively simple to install, why not do it everywhere you can?)

    * Tim's boat was side-tied to the dock with bow and stern lines--the standard procedure. When water poured into the cockpit area, the hull started to sink...but primarily on the side away from the dock. (In the photos I shot right after we got down to the dock, you can see that the boat is hanging on its side, suspended from the dock by the mooring lines. I would argue that if the boat had taken on water away from the dock, it might not have rolled over so sharply....and in fact it might have remained level, or fairly level. It "turned turtle" largely because it rotated the only way it could, with the dock lines acting as hinges as the hull started to sink.

    * Personal lesson learned: In the future, I will recommend that we not only pour floatation foam under cockpit floors, but also in some additional chambers that are higher-up in the hull--just to make sure that our boats stay upright, as well as being prevented from sinking to the bottom. With a typical outboard boat that has a splashwell, there are two spots that are normally dead space that would make fantastic chambers for floatation foam: The otherwise empty, unused areas in the far back corners of the hull, outside of the splashwell boxes. (I know that many factory-built splashwells extend the full width of the hull, but it's completely unnecessary to have the splashwell floor going clear to the outside of the hull. No reason why, in restoring a boat, that we cannot reduce the width of the splashwell box to just beyond the vertical sides of the transom cutout...building in the outer corners a vertical plywood chamber that can be filled to the top with floatation foam. This would put a fair amount of floatation high up in the hull and right where you want it--at the transom, where your heavy outboard motor(s) are going to try hardest to scuttle the boat in following seas or docked situations like the one Tim faced with his Seafair Sedan.

    * Another thought this evening is to stop throwing away those old fiberglass saddle tanks that can no longer be used to contain today's gasolines. They might not be any good for fuel, but if cleaned up they'd make terrific chambers to fill up with foam. (Heck, just keep the old deck-fill tubes and pour the foam straight in, then cap 'em off when the foam overflows onto the side decks. With 20 gallons of floatation foam on each side of your hull, joined by foam under the cockpit floor, your boat will NEVER go down....at least not very far down. You can either mount new fuel tanks ahead of, or aft of the old saddle tanks, or you can perhaps place a single fuel tank under the stern bench seat--or two fuel tanks in plywood boxes under your skipper-and-mate swivel seats. But filling the old tanks with foam might be more sensible than ripping them out and tossing the things...as long as you clean the old fuel out of the tanks before pouring any foam, since gasoline tends to eat foam.

    So, that's about it for tonight....just a few thoughts that may be helpful as we continue to learn from Tim's unfortunate and surreal accident.

    I'm sure others will have their own good ideas to contribute to the discussion, too...

    - Marty
    Attached Files
    http://www.pocketyachters.com

    "If a man is to be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." - E. B. White

  • #2
    My Opinion on Foamed Boat Bottoms

    I've spent my career rescuing boats and have raised some 300 of them over the years.
    My opinion on foamed boat bottoms, two part foam, bilge pumps and such......

    Foam between the boat bottom and floor is a good thing. It strengthens the bottom, the floor and adds positive bouyancy. Adding large quantities of water above the foamed floor will invert the center of gravity and the boat WILL ROLL OVER. Only way to stop it is to add floatation under the gunwales. If you foam the bottom, then foam the gunwales.

    Closed cell two part foam will over time absorb water. Submerged long enough it will become as soggy as a saturated sponge. Two years back I replaced the floor and foam in a fairly new Bayliner. Fresh water collected in pockets in the foam, rotted the floor and saturated the foam.

    Cutting out old fiberglass tanks seems a waste. The can be cleaned and repaired by cutting access ports in the top and then coat the insides with 3M Scotch Clad. Scotch Clad 776 and similar products are used in aviation to seal riveted wing tanks. Boeing aircraft have sealed tanks although Boeing uses a different brand.

    Back-up and extra powerful bilge pumps are a good idea as is a bilge alarm when away from the boat. Todays restored outboard boats often carry larger and heavier motors. This reduces freeboard aft as well as producing a higher center of gravity, since much of the added weight is in the powerhead. The added weight also changes the fore-aft trim making the boat stern heavy and more easily swamped.

    Special care must be taken when modifying splash wells. With bigger and heavier motors, the reliance on and importance of the splashwell becomes greater.

    Small boats need to get rid of water on board fast. At 8.2 pounds per gallon and seeking its own level, 50 gallons of water can upset the equilibrium of a small boat in the blink of an eye.

    The Skagit 31 has two watertight bulkheads (making three compartments). There are six bilge pumps and each compartment has an alarm sensor. One of the bilge pumps is engine driven from a belt and electric clutch. I have 20 feet of 1.5" hose so I can pump any compartment or pump a dinghy or small boat along side. Clutch pump pumps about 60 gallons per minute. Engine compartment centrifugal pump is 50 gallons per minute, two others in fore and aft compartments are 33 gallons per minute each and the fourth is 20 gallons per minute. Lastly a semi-positive displacement pump in the engine compartment insures ALL the water is pumped out as centrifugal pumps usually leave an inch or more water.

    A good piece of equipment to carry is a high capacity centrifugal electric pump with 15 to 20 feet or so of outlet hose and long power cables with alligator clips. You can throw this into someones boat and connect it to your battery. Recommend at least 30 gallons per minute (2000 gallons per hour).
    My two cents worth....

    McSkagit
    Captain Tim (McSkagit) Jones 1959 Skagit 31 Saratogan

    http://www.closeencountersecotours.com

    Pay it forward.......take a kid for a boat ride

    Comment


    • #3
      Keeping Boats Afloat

      Tim -

      Some good points--I sure haven't tried sealing old tanks, but have heard horror stories about failed attempts to do so. Will have to try the 3M product.

      Almost all of the boats we're talking about in the club are, statistically speaking, small craft that spend 99% of their lives on trailers...usually under cover in garages, carports or at least Costco shelters. They don't tend to spend years in the water, soaking up anything, so I suspect that two-part foam will last almost forever in most of these boats. (Personally, I've tested the modern floatation foam by submerging blocks of it for three solid years in water. The blocks of foam didn't absorb water at all...but the tested foam also wasn't damaged, didn't have the pockets you're describing on the Bayliner, etc. I know that if you damage the foam through compression, cutting into it or otherwise breaking the cells open, that the damaged areas can absorb water, but it's safe to say that boats in our club that have been properly foamed are not like the Bayliner you worked on--that is, they don't have waterlogged foam, or floors that have been rotted by wet foam.)

      And, yes, it's important that we can find more ways to get foam up higher in the hulls, to avoid the spectre of rollovers. Your point about today's heavier, taller motors is important, since many of our boats were originally designed for, say, single 35hp outboards....not towering, top-heavy 150hp monsters.

      - Marty
      http://www.pocketyachters.com

      "If a man is to be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." - E. B. White

      Comment


      • #4
        More on two part foam

        Marty,
        You are right that these restored boats are going to receive better care than they ever did and that water under the floor isn't likely to happen.

        Foamed floors that I have cut open show how difficult it is to get uniform filling of a foamed compartment. Because of the difficulty of determining the exact amount of mixed two part foam to pour, one tends to be conservative in each pour. Too much and it could break the floor or tabbing holding the floor. So the foam goes in with the consistancy of pancake batter and "rises" in essentially the same shape. Go light in the pour and you have to mix another batch. Pour in the next batch and it assumes the new shape on top the new foam again like pancake batter. The stratifying layers is where water enters.

        The probem is that in each subsequent pour, small lakes (where there is no foam)are created where water can collect. These lakes are difficult to avoid unless you pour the entire space in one pour. Doing so risks too much foam that can break the sides or top of the space.

        Two part foam has been around a long time. In the stern and engine compartment of the Saratogan the bilge between the stringers were filled with it and then glassed over. In the cabin, the foam between the stringers was left open. Everything that was sealed was waterlogged. Everything left open was dry despite being under water for extended periods.

        Hoping the new formulation of two part foam is beter than the old. It looks identical however.

        McSkagit
        Captain Tim (McSkagit) Jones 1959 Skagit 31 Saratogan

        http://www.closeencountersecotours.com

        Pay it forward.......take a kid for a boat ride

        Comment


        • #5
          Pics and more stuff

          A couple bits of info.
          My rear dock line was actually going to the outside cleat and hooked with a caribiner just by chance.
          My fender took up the dockside cleat and know I also see why Chuck C` boats are near and tidy,homes for cleats and homes for fenders.
          As Marty said ince th ewater caught the hull,it was stbd down with my bottom fom I did do DO the outer 2/3rds on almost all my rides,just not the middle.I tried to "supplement"not float the whole boat or change things too much.Figured I`d always be there.
          I`ll be slipping foam in the gunnels for sure ,but it will be pinned in place well.SAFE boats acronnym starts with the word "Secure".They used 3/4 `` SS bolts into 1/4 channel.
          My 1/2 empty fuel tanks blew my rear cross bench apart,screw from above were good for standing on but not for holding the hull up.
          I only lost the Black nylon strap I used to pin the fuel tank to the one side.The quick pin latch snapped clean so the fuel line never opened to the water.Quick release so to speak.
          Final note(scratch that...),Wave cycle time was under a half second on this skinny lake with the wind funneling from Vashon/ Blake ,along Alki and thru the Seattle Center where it venturis right at Lake Union from the SW.
          The end we where at was the last funnel with water flowing west.
          Sidenote: The salvage/scrap Glasspar I bought a motor from recently was snickering at me as I walked down the Lake Union Boatyard to re-organize Jeff Pullen`s Shamrock.

          Note the Boat never actually touched the bottom as the Mighty Johnson held the Load.
          Black Soot in pics is from the Diesil we had to use to run spotlights ,hmmmm,since Fisheries Supply in Seattle ( Hey Barry!) wouldn`t let my Buddy leave work to help his friend 3 blocks away.He has his side to....
          I should have called or walked over and pointed out air bags and Manifolds were ready to rock.Seems the story got out after all the people who quoted huge sums to come get wet checked back on a workless Monday to see if they could now do it cheaper.
          "Oh ,he was done in an hour and a half?" kinda stung but let BJ make a name for himself on the Lake.
          Now the one guy I should have called from Elliott bay is courting BJ to be his number one diver making real money(and getting some timeoff in summer to play instead ,"wait until decmber/Jan."...which is now ,hmmm again).
          Easy to 2 nd guess now,but it was pretty much my own Folly with bad parking huge.
          We also really couldn`t have defied that current which I know from working from from boats up against boats all summer all around this same shoreline.The current flows to the Locks constant,any wind the opposite or even tangent too will get you twisting even when floating dry.
          I`ll pt some more later,tried to read all the comments while uploading the pics I know you`ll want to see.
          Looks like window and rubrail time.
          The g3 has a Voodoo doll I can`t see somewhere.I keeping going by with first restos now it`s ready and maybe passed by for the last time.....5 years of getting skipped would piss you off too,I guess.
          Tim M
          I`ll be Damming off the back so it has some sort of foamed side bench on each side,none in middle or maybe Tee shaped cross ways so it seems smaller and for toe space.A Bilge can handle that amt of room with a dam an added benefit.More to come as I can think.
          Attached Files
          unk.year 10` Mahogeny "DragonFly"racer
          15` SAFE boat w/120 hp Johnson
          SeaRay 175BR
          Hi-Laker lapline
          14` Trailorboat

          Comment


          • #6
            Tim, Tim and Marty, We are incredebly lucky to be associated with people with so much expierience and knowledge. A huge thank you to you guys is in order. Marty and Helmar foamed my boat a few years back but because of Tims mis fortion I will explore the possibilities of maybe more foam. Thanks to you guys for all the great advise it is very much appreciated.
            Greg James

            Comment


            • #7
              No such thing as Too Much Foam.

              I agree with Foam, More Foam.
              No such thing as Too Much Flotation Foam.

              I too will explore the concept of adding more foam up under the gunwales.

              In some projects I have seen Sheets of foam 3M'ed to the hulls.
              Now I will be looking for closed flotation foam to fill voided areas in the same manor.
              Helmar Joe Johanesen
              1959 Skagit 20ft Offshore, 1959 Skagit 16ft Skimaster,
              1961 17ft Dorsett Catalina.1958 Uniflite 17 ft
              Outboards: 2.5 Bearcats, 3 50hp White shadow Mercs
              2 40hp Johnsons, several smaller Old kickers for a total of 12

              Our Sister club
              http://www.goldenstateglassics.com

              Oh, and Where is Robin Hood when you need him??

              Comment


              • #8
                Foam and More Foam and More Foam and More Foam...

                No more foam for me. I'm going with built-in lift bags......
                Captain Tim (McSkagit) Jones 1959 Skagit 31 Saratogan

                http://www.closeencountersecotours.com

                Pay it forward.......take a kid for a boat ride

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tim, you may have something there. How about an automatic self-inflating PFD for boats? When the system senses water around the gunwales an air chamber surrounding the boat inflates! Yeah, that's the ticket!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by McSkagit Tim Jones, post: 8592
                    No more foam for me. I'm going with built-in lift bags......
                    Interesting........How much are those in comparison to foaming I wonder.
                    Helmar Joe Johanesen
                    1959 Skagit 20ft Offshore, 1959 Skagit 16ft Skimaster,
                    1961 17ft Dorsett Catalina.1958 Uniflite 17 ft
                    Outboards: 2.5 Bearcats, 3 50hp White shadow Mercs
                    2 40hp Johnsons, several smaller Old kickers for a total of 12

                    Our Sister club
                    http://www.goldenstateglassics.com

                    Oh, and Where is Robin Hood when you need him??

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      One thing i may be missing with the foaming is the ride of the boat. I foamed my Bellboy including the whole bow section and i can clip along at 28-35 mph (top speed is 41 ish)in the Sound with chop - No problem! The foaming is awesome making my old Bellboy ride like a 2010 boat.

                      Just saying...
                      John & Diane Kelly

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Main point I keep leaving out on why foaming under the Seafair floor is different than other hulls....THE SHAPE.
                        It it very tall in the middle,Tapered to nothing 6`` from the sides.
                        Looking from front to back ,it is a basic Pyramid shape.
                        It even tapers to nothing the last few feet at the rear,so IF foamed entirely,the bow may have raised even higher.
                        A pryamid works great flat side up in water as it normally sits.Put it on edge and now you have stored energy wanting to surface.
                        I put the foam in the outer voids so I had the "Feel" of the foamed boat ,but hoped the lack of center foam would give me stability at rest in heavy Seas.
                        I`d say I failed in matching what foam I did do ,with a decent proportion of it just above the floor and to the rear corners.
                        I got my piece of above pre-cut foam yesterday.....will play in between coats of primer on the older 17` Whaler I just backed in.....no ,not mine.
                        This is white stuff not Coast Guard aproved under floors,but is fine above and not mingling with spilled Fuels.
                        Chuck Bauer and I were stopped with an overheat horn sounding(found a bad connection by the way) Mid-sound last summer....in 2-3 seas,and in maybe 1200 FEET of water.Yikes.Thought I`d seen the worst.
                        Chuck also demoed how the hull really likes 23-27 mph....it gets quiet and becomes one with the water surface.
                        If I get to doing new and taller stringers,I`ll foam it up the same way I did,but will have Twice that volume straddling the engines and Batteries up above the floors.Also thinking of a flange to put a fake splashwell bottom on,basically concealing that huge cavity that sure looks perfect for rows of tanks and batteries.Bigger drains will coming too.
                        Might also make a Foam-cored Lid with really strong hinges.
                        Back to it......
                        Tim M
                        psJust read the air bag idea....yep an Old Free inflatable/Liferaft has many uses.I sold them to Shipyard guys who used them as "Elevators" inside of old boats getting re-fitted.They`d have pc of wood on top of it and then pull the ripcord and deploy it until it reach the next deck above,once empty they scuttle it and dispose of it.
                        Foaming keeps my boatyard buddy very busy,he said to keep on Foaming(weak sarcasm...).
                        Sunday he said the same thing....."Foam wouldn`t have mattered "from what he saw.East winds today.....another perfect storm.
                        Here`s what I usually use on bad weather days...now 18 years old!
                        This Boat comes with a PFD,Rhino -lined Closed cell collar,tough enough to cartwheel your Cyclone Gate and survive.Don`t ask,wind happens.
                        Attached Files
                        unk.year 10` Mahogeny "DragonFly"racer
                        15` SAFE boat w/120 hp Johnson
                        SeaRay 175BR
                        Hi-Laker lapline
                        14` Trailorboat

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Other forms of gunwale floatation

                          I've always carried big fenders on my assistance/ tow boats, Polyform 10"X32"'s for example. These have enough floatation when clipped into the stern of an outboard boat to keep the stern level and from sinking.

                          McSkagit
                          Captain Tim (McSkagit) Jones 1959 Skagit 31 Saratogan

                          http://www.closeencountersecotours.com

                          Pay it forward.......take a kid for a boat ride

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the splash well itself. Tim's '59 does not have a splash well made for shedding water. It is essentially a big 40 gallon bucket on the stern to keep water out of the cockpit. '61 and later had a splashwell that shed water and gave room under it for gas tanks. So think of the potential weight of 40 gal of water, a Johnson 3 cyl 70, and a kicker motor. That is a lot of weight on the stern. If Tim had filled the hull with foam it would have turned turtle but still would have needed assistance to get back upright.
                            Foam for ride, rigidity and safety under the floor, but on my Sabrecraft and on my del Mar before, I foamed the gunwales and everywhere else high that i could to balance out high floatation with the foamed floor to help keep the boat upright if swamped by a wave before the bilge pumps and buckets could remove enough water.
                            Ideally, I'd love to have Tim's Safe Boat epoxy coated foam belt around my hull, as ugly as that might be. Fishing Admiralty inlet leads to some hairy water conditions. my $000.02 ChuckB
                            "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing- absolutely nothing- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." K. Grahame "The Wind in the Willows"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Got some Foam ,just temporary so I can go watertest and feel prepared.
                              Splashwell mods to come....I think it`s more like 60-80 gallons,but even 40 is 320 lbs!
                              Note the foam has an angle on one side so it can go against the outer hull.Should run around $25.00 per block,this is a test pc before I pour or make a cover of some sort.
                              White won`t be good under the deck as Gas will melt it,plus it shreds if not bagged ,which I`ll do with Hefty "Steel Saks".I will clone whatever fits in pourable foam later on.
                              This public service anouncement brought by Capt Nemo......
                              Attached Files
                              unk.year 10` Mahogeny "DragonFly"racer
                              15` SAFE boat w/120 hp Johnson
                              SeaRay 175BR
                              Hi-Laker lapline
                              14` Trailorboat

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X